Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?

[Tobus]

I take it you are making a veiled reference to what is known here as "The Donald" that trichologically challenged gentleman who blusters and brays at all and sundry on the strength of having a great deal of cash. If so then you are perfectly correct - I think the words "grandmother" and "suck eggs" are apposite here. If you refer to those who genuinely integrate, listen to local views and become an asset in the community then you could not be farther from the truth.

Actually, I wasn't talking about Donald Trump at all. Though I will take this opportunity to apologise for his behaviour on behalf of my fellow Americans who aren't insane. The man is an embarrassment and has been for some time.

What I was getting at is that Scotland has dealt with the influx of outsiders for a long time now. As in, many centuries. For example, there were many attempts by outsiders to improve roads, schools, etc., in the Highlands (and I'm not even talking about the government) many times in the past 400 years. Most of these attempts failed because the locals simply didn't want it, or were being manipulated. Through the centuries, as foreigners moved there, purchased land, and tried to do business there, it seems that Scots have developed a rather healthy distrust of them. And for good reason! In most cases, these ventures have resulted in problems for the people who live there. They have been exploited, removed from their jobs and homes, etc. They have lost much of their language, culture, traditions, and property due to the influx of outsiders. This is why I register surprise at hearing that "what Scottish people really want" is for more outsiders to come in, bring their money, and try to improve the nation. That hasn't worked too terribly well for the Scots in the past.

If you refer to those who genuinely integrate, listen to local views and become an asset in the community then you could not be farther from the truth.

OK, so here I think I understand more where you're coming from. Scots would like people to bring their outside money and experience, but not their outside visions of how to help, right? I'm not sure it can ever work that way. Any time foreign people settle in an area, there will be changes that reflect where they came from. That's the nature of mixing cultures - which is one thing we Americans understand very well.

[RockyR]

Rocky and others have brought up an interesting point that should be fully discussed in another thread. (Which I am going to start)

Where did the world learn that white hose and ruche ties are the proper accessories worn with a kilt? I'm sorry but we learned that from the Scots. The Scottish websites, business and retailers taught us that white hose Ghillie Brouges and Prince Charlie jackets are the Kilt Uniform.

To expand this just a bit further, when we here, want to know about how to wear the kilt in any other way we must resort to raking up old photos from the 1920's and 1930's. What we see then are shepherd crooks and laird's plaids.

Where are the examples of today's Scots wearing kilts as daily wear? If a person, who in his native country wears the kilt, visits Scotland, he is then looked down on and is subject to ridicule because he has followed the only example he has.

Heck, I would get laughed at showing up to a function here in Canada if I dressed in the way Scottish companies tell me how the kilt should be worn.



Then further grist for another topic. Where are the examples of something, anything, other than the Scots themselves feeding the world the dream? All one has to do is watch the advertisements produced by Scottish companies for world-wide audiences. All we are given is the dream of castles and standing stones. Of red-haired lasses and braw men with bare chests and kilts.

It is no wonder many in the world have a warped sense of Scotland.

It is only very recently that we have had the internet and can learn about Scotland as it is today. One of the big influances on non-Scots learning about today's Scotland is this, and other internet sites, finally dispelling the myths we have been fed for so long.

[Phil]

I think you may be underestimating the role of Tourism plays in the Scottish economy a bit. Here's a quote from a Wikipedia article about it and a link to 2 articles where the facts are taken from. I'm not saying Wikipedia is 100% the most reliable for all things, but this gives a good idea:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Scotland

Also, these articles speak nothing of the billions in exports of cultural products of Scotland (bagpipes, short bread, Scotch Whisky, highland wear, etc). Scotch Whisky is £800 Million per year ALONE. I would strongly suggest that exporting cultural icons is big business in Scotland... that which sustains thousands and thousands of workers.

I think AA said it best when he brought up the fact that Scotland seems to have an issue with Donald Trump, so it's not always roses when people "bring their skills and/or investment to help make this country great" b/c people coming to Scotland may have different ideas for the future of your country than you do. I would think that to be the height of arrogance and something not to be encouraged.

I actually live in Scotland and have to endure, yes ENDURE the influx of tourists to my city every year. I have to try and negotiate the groups of people blocking pavements, the buses full of tourists etc. and what do I get from it all. Well as a ratepayer in Edinburgh I get to share in the shortfall from the "Gathering" which was a financial disaster, I get to pay for the rubbish collections which keep the Royal Mile clean at the expense of other areas of the city, I get to pay for all the facilities that tourists enjoy thanks to the local authority but what do I get out of it? B**ger all? That's what I derive from tourism. Hilton hotels send all their profits to America. Starbucks funnel their profits via Luxembourg to America. Do I really need to go on? Meanwhile I have to pay taxes to fund policing, education, rubbish collection, god knows what else? And who benefits? Not me. And should I be pi**ed off about it. You bet I should. And who should I blame? Perhaps the tourist industry that leeches on innocent taxpayers like me. Because, believe you me, we have no recourse and have to pay or we can go to jail. No don't laugh. In this country it is a fact. If you don't pay your local taxes you can be jailed! That is the law that we endure.

[Phil]

What I was getting at is that Scotland has dealt with the influx of outsiders for a long time now. As in, many centuries. For example, there were many attempts by outsiders to improve roads, schools, etc., in the Highlands (and I'm not even talking about the government) many times in the past 400 years. Most of these attempts failed because the locals simply didn't want it, or were being manipulated. Through the centuries, as foreigners moved there, purchased land, and tried to do business there, it seems that Scots have developed a rather healthy distrust of them. And for good reason! In most cases, these ventures have resulted in problems for the people who live there. They have been exploited, removed from their jobs and homes, etc. They have lost much of their language, culture, traditions, and property due to the influx of outsiders. This is why I register surprise at hearing that "what Scottish people really want" is for more outsiders to come in, bring their money, and try to improve the nation. That hasn't worked too terribly well for the Scots in the past.


OK, so here I think I understand more where you're coming from. Scots would like people to bring their outside money and experience, but not their outside visions of how to help, right? I'm not sure it can ever work that way. Any time foreign people settle in an area, there will be changes that reflect where they came from. That's the nature of mixing cultures - which is one thing we Americans understand very well.

An interesting perspective and one I would be eager to explore further. You mention people moving to Scotland, purchasing land etc. and I assume that you refer to the English industrialists who, after making obscene profits from the misery and virtual slavery of child labour in the 19th century, then turned their attention to the cleared hinterland of Scotland where their compatriots had denuded the land of people to make way for sheep. There then was uncountable acres of "playground" for them to dress up in tartan and chase the stags and revel in the Victorian fashion of "Balmorality", emulating the then Royals who played at going "back to nature" in the primitive Highlands of Scotland.
These people did, indeed, improve the Highlands. Sadly not for the benefit of the general population who, until the recent right to roam legislation, were excluded from large swathes of their country, but actually to garner higher rents from other southern industrialists who rented their estates for "the season". Perhaps this is a puzzle to you coming from the land of the free and home of the brave where you can, no doubt freely roam, but, actually Scots were physically excluded from large tracts of their homeland by non-Scottish landowners protecting their deer stalking and grouse shooting. Just imagine if large tracts of Texas had been owned by Russians, for example. and they had forcibly excluded everyone from those lands. If this is what you call "improvement" then I wonder how your Texan compatriots would view it?
We do not require another influx of rapacious land-grabbers, the likes of the carpet-baggers who followed your own civil war. What we seek are people devoted to the ideal of a prosperous Scotland, a land where the benefit of all was paramount and where social divisions did not exist.

[RockyR]

I actually live in Scotland and have to endure, yes ENDURE the influx of tourists to my city every year. I have to try and negotiate the groups of people blocking pavements, the buses full of tourists etc. and what do I get from it all. Well as a ratepayer in Edinburgh I get to share in the shortfall from the "Gathering" which was a financial disaster, I get to pay for the rubbish collections which keep the Royal Mile clean at the expense of other areas of the city, I get to pay for all the facilities that tourists enjoy thanks to the local authority but what do I get out of it? B**ger all? That's what I derive from tourism. Hilton hotels send all their profits to America. Starbucks funnel their profits via Luxembourg to America. Do I really need to go on? Meanwhile I have to pay taxes to fund policing, education, rubbish collection, god knows what else? And who benefits? Not me. And should I be pi**ed off about it. You bet I should. And who should I blame? Perhaps the tourist industry that leeches on innocent taxpayers like me. Because, believe you me, we have no recourse and have to pay or we can go to jail. No don't laugh. In this country it is a fact. If you don't pay your local taxes you can be jailed! That is the law that we endure.

The following is said with tongue firmly planted in cheek in the spirit of fun:

Maybe you should move to America. We have lots of open area where tourism isn't a problem. I'd be happy to have you in my neighborhood.

Tongue out of cheek and I say this with no malice intended, so please take this in the manner in which it's stated: That's life in the city. I understand the frustration. It would bother me as well (probably more than it bothers you)... that's also why I don't live in New York City, Boston, Philadelphia, etc.

One thing I'd like to speculate about... If there were a complete lack of tourism in big cities and lack of exports from Scotland and all those employed in exporting cultural products and tourist trade were left jobless, the bigger issue would be the skyrocketing unemployment rate and the bigger strain it would put on taxpayers like yourself.

There's a musical group in America named "The Mighty Mighty Bosstones" from Boston, Massachusettes. They did a song called "They Came to Boston" about living in a big city / college city (Boston) and enduring the tourism and college kids.

Lyrics to the song are very apropos in this discussion:

They came to Boston on their vacation
They came, they saw, they annoyed me
They saw it all, what? Fanueil Hall
It's best if they just avoid me

Rented a car to see the sights
They found the HUB confusing
Looked for the Swan Boats in Mattapan
Well, I find that real amusing

I was here before they came
I'll be here long after
Don't want to share, but it seems clear
That I'm gonna have to

Here's a link (click on the time shown below the video screen to jump to that song):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wjBVfJGv08

[Phil]

Rocky and others have brought up an interesting point that should be fully discussed in another thread. (Which I am going to start)

Where did the world learn that white hose and ruche ties are the proper accessories worn with a kilt? I'm sorry but we learned that from the Scots. The Scottish websites, business and retailers taught us that white hose Ghillie Brouges and Prince Charlie jackets are the Kilt Uniform.

To expand this just a bit further, when we here, want to know about how to wear the kilt in any other way we must resort to raking up old photos from the 1920's and 1930's. What we see then are shepherd crooks and laird's plaids.

Where are the examples of today's Scots wearing kilts as daily wear? If a person, who in his native country wears the kilt, visits Scotland, he is then looked down on and is subject to ridicule because he has followed the only example he has.

Heck, I would get laughed at showing up to a function here in Canada if I dressed in the way Scottish companies tell me how the kilt should be worn.



Then further grist for another topic. Where are the examples of something, anything, other than the Scots themselves feeding the world the dream? All one has to do is watch the advertisements produced by Scottish companies for world-wide audiences. All we are given is the dream of castles and standing stones. Of red-haired lasses and braw men with bare chests and kilts.

It is no wonder many in the world have a warped sense of Scotland.

It is only very recently that we have had the internet and can learn about Scotland as it is today. One of the big influances on non-Scots learning about today's Scotland is this, and other internet sites, finally dispelling the myths we have been fed for so long.

Actually a very insightful post and one I can very much identify with. Sadly many Scottish highland dress companies are more interested in the bottom line than the integrity of the product they are selling. Once reputable companies like Kinloch Anderson are now more focussed on the "never mind the quality, feel the width" end of the market, probably to compete with the likes of the Gold Bros who have mined a very lucrative seam with their cheap and cheerful kilts. It is sad that Scotland is seen as a medieval backwater, full of castles and standing stones etc.. None of these feeds the ambitions of the Scots of today.

[Phil]

The following is said with tongue firmly planted in cheek in the spirit of fun:

Maybe you should move to America. We have lots of open area where tourism isn't a problem. I'd be happy to have you in my neighborhood.

Tongue out of cheek and I say this with no malice intended, so please take this in the manner in which it's stated: That's life in the city. I understand the frustration. It would bother me as well (probably more than it bothers you)... that's also why I don't live in New York City, Boston, Philadelphia, etc.

One thing I'd like to speculate about... If there were a complete lack of tourism in big cities and lack of exports from Scotland and all those employed in exporting cultural products and tourist trade were left jobless, the bigger issue would be the skyrocketing unemployment rate and the bigger strain it would put on taxpayers like yourself.

If there was a complete lack of tourism I doubt that it would affect my life in the slightest. Employment in the tourist trade is principally in multi-national hotel groups who channel their profits via tax havens so no benefit there. The local authority has, unsuccessfully, suggested a tourist tax to try and derive some local benefit. The traders benefitting mostly from tourists are the like of the Gold Bros and, while I have no evidence to substantiate this, many ethnic groups from the Indian sub-continent transfer their funds there for the benefit of the population there. You do have to ask the question as to what is funding India building aircraft carriers and a space programme but this is purely speculation so please do not expand upon it.
There is, of course, no law against any of this but neither is there any benefit to be accrued to the local population. We have to bear the cost of extra rubbish collection, extra policing and all the other extra facilities laid on for tourists. The downside of that is that we, in Edinburgh, pay the highest local taxes in Scotland (and perhaps in the United Kingdom if the truth be told). My annual local tax bill is in excess of £2,600 ($4,173) to which has to be added income tax, VAT, petrol tax, road tax and any other taxes an aquisitive Government chooses to enact. So, perhaps, you may appreciate my attitude towards the benefit (or otherwise) of tourism for me as an individual. Of course if I ran a B& B or some other tourist trap I may well have a different outlook.

[Woot22]

It is sad that Scotland is seen as a medieval backwater, full of castles and standing stones etc.. None of these feeds the ambitions of the Scots of today.

I am not sure if perhaps you may be projecting viewpoints onto tourists to your country that they may not actually feel. I have been to Scotland many times but never held these views. But I may seem like I hold these views because of the type of destinations I like to see while I am there. But that is because we live in the modern world everyday, we use technology and all that all the time. When on vacation people want an escape from the hustle and bustle of the modern world. That is not to say that we see Scotland as an old fashioned and not up with the times. For instance when someone comes to the US for vacation I do not assume they don't appreciate the countries work on space programs and other engineering wonders because they only wanted to see the Statue of Liberty or Mount Rushmore. I do not think a tourist views America as being all rustic and a bit out of touch with the modern because they spent their entire time visiting old western towns and the grand canyon. Put simply you may be looking way too much into the viewpoints a tourist has of your wonderful country. Views they may actually not hold and thus getting frustrated that they see your country as being simple and quaint just because they like to see castles and listen to bagpipes. Just my take and certainly no offense is intended. I just wanted to say as a tourist of your lovely country that I completely understand that there is way more to Scotland then the tourist destinations. Just like every country in Western Europe and North America, it is complex and has much to offer. But when I am on vacation I want an escape and just to relax, just saying.

[RockyR]

If there was a complete lack of tourism I doubt that it would affect my life in the slightest. Employment in the tourist trade is principally in multi-national hotel groups who channel their profits via tax havens so no benefit there. The local authority has, unsuccessfully, suggested a tourist tax to try and derive some local benefit. The traders benefitting mostly from tourists are the like of the Gold Bros and, while I have no evidence to substantiate this, many ethnic groups from the Indian sub-continent transfer their funds there for the benefit of the population there. You do have to ask the question as to what is funding India building aircraft carriers and a space programme but this is purely speculation so please do not expand upon it.
There is, of course, no law against any of this but neither is there any benefit to be accrued to the local population. We have to bear the cost of extra rubbish collection, extra policing and all the other extra facilities laid on for tourists. The downside of that is that we, in Edinburgh, pay the highest local taxes in Scotland (and perhaps in the United Kingdom if the truth be told). My annual local tax bill is in excess of £2,600 ($4,173) to which has to be added income tax, VAT, petrol tax, road tax and any other taxes an aquisitive Government chooses to enact. So, perhaps, you may appreciate my attitude towards the benefit (or otherwise) of tourism for me as an individual.

I completely understand your annoyance at tourists. However, it's the price we pay by living in a capitalist society, in a big city where people from other countries want to visit.

I won't debate you on the affect lack of tourist trade would have on your life directly, but I will state that it would impact the local economy on multiple levels aside from hotels and starbucks (air travel, restaurants, museums, taxi service, size of shopping areas and breadth of product offerings, etc). Without tourist trade, yes there would be lower 'trash collection bills', but there would also be much less money in the local economy to pay the bills that were acrued. There would be much less need for services and businesses that are supported by the tourist trade which locals can utilize as well.

I have no idea of actual numbers for the following, but I am throwing out an argument "theory": If there are 5 Million people visiting a city per year pumping millions into the local economy (plus local population) and that city sustains 500 restaurants, how many restaurants could it support without those 5 millions tourists? Simple answer without trying to figure out the math: Much less.

Using myself as an example: As a kid, my parents had a shore house in Ocean City, NJ. Close friends of the family lived in OC NJ as well. We went down in the spring and fall, before and after tourist season. It was much calmer and relaxing without the hustle and bustle. During the summer months (Labor day to Memorial day), it is wall to wall tourists. Do businesses exist and run there year round? Yes. Do they rely on the tourist season "boom" to get through the winter? Yes. Could half as many businesses exist there without that summer boom? No. Would the local economy be nearly as strong without that tourist trade? No. Did I know I was going to have to endure overcrowded beaches and annoying shoobies (what we call day trippers and vacationers) during the summer? Yes, but it's the price we paid for enjoying the beach we called our second home. It's also the price you have to pay for choosing to live in a spot people want to visit.

I am not sure if perhaps you may be projecting viewpoints onto tourists to your country that they may not actually feel. I have been to Scotland many times but never held these views. But I may seem like I hold these views because of the type of destinations I like to see while I am there. But that is because we live in the modern world everyday, we use technology and all that all the time. When on vacation people want an escape from the hustle and bustle of the modern world. That is not to say that we see Scotland as an old fashioned and not up with the times. For instance when someone comes to the US for vacation I do not assume they don't appreciate the countries work on space programs and other engineering wonders because they only wanted to see the Statue of Liberty or Mount Rushmore. I do not think a tourist views America as being all rustic and a bit out of touch with the modern because they spent their entire time visiting old western towns and the grand canyon. Put simply you may be looking way too much into the viewpoints a tourist has of your wonderful country. Views they may actually not hold and thus getting frustrated that they see your country as being simple and quaint just because they like to see castles and listen to bagpipes. Just my take and certainly no offense is intended. I just wanted to say as a tourist of your lovely country that I completely understand that there is way more to Scotland then the tourist destinations. Just like every country in Western Europe and North America, it is complex and has much to offer. But when I am on vacation I want an escape and just to relax, just saying.

Well said. I was thinking something similar, but didn't know how to express it clearly and that sums it up well.

[be da veva]

Let's put some images on this.

A lot of tourists are overly excited to visit a place they have dreamed about for a long time. Some of them have started to ''live'' a new life style that they attached to said country. Some are more laid back.
Some of the overly enthusiasts did not truly studied the evolution of said country and still see them as they were quite a few years ago....

And some just don't have a clue....

This is what they expect when they go somewhere. This is not how it is for real....
Scotland

Canada

USA

Germany

And so on....
There are good tourists and bad tourists. So I guess the question is: What kind of tourist are you?