De-Anglicisation of Names

[slohairt]

how about byrnes?

BYRNES This is Anglicised from the Irish, Ó Broin (pronounced O BRAWN) meaning descended from Bran, a personal name meaning raven.

[Nighthawk]

Ooou, blood eagles...

Kinda like my car engine... Splutter splutter Cough cough... DIE!!

[Bugbear]

Yep, lungs.

[sarge]

Slohairt, thank you for all of your efforts in this thread. My daughter has married a young man named Henley. Any thoughts on Henley?

Many thanks

[BoldHighlander]

MORGAN: Morgan is most often Welsh or Scottish. Either way, it is of Celtic origin and means "sea bright" (?) In Welsh, it was originally Ap Morgan meaning son of Morgan. (Ap corresponds to Gaelic mac.) In Scotland, the progenitor of Clan MacKay (Clann Mhic Aoidh) is Morgan, son of Magnus. The clan MacKay is known as Siol Mhorgain meaning the race of Morgan.

There is some disagreement amongst historians/researchers over who the progenitor of Clann Mhic Aoidh (Clan Mackay) is. There are two train of thoughts:

"The Mackays are descended from the ancient Jarls of upper Sutherland, the northern extremity of Scotland, which makes them originally of Norse blood. But they were in Scotland since very early times, having been derived from those first Norse invaders who settled in the district about the third or fourth century.
Their progenitor was Morgan, the son of Magnus, Jarl of the Orkneys and north coast during the early part of 1300, From him the Clan was called Siol Mhorgain. His son, Donald, married a daughter of MacNial of Gigha, and their son was named Aodh, a Celtic appellation that is difficult for other races to asperate. Several of the ancient Scots Kings bore the name, however, and the early historians translated it "Hugh".

Then we have noted genealogist, Sir Iain Moncreiffe, stating that the progenitor of the Clan Mackay was Eethelred, the son of King Malcolm III Canmore (1058-1093) and descendant from the Pictish Royal House of Alpin, Early Kings of Scots.

Mackay = MacAoidh (Son of Fire) = Mac Eye not Mac Kay

[BoldHighlander]

MOORE When you study Celtic names, the name Moore crops up as a headache every so often! It can belong to any group, including the English. See the earlier post for a translation. If it's the Irish Moore, than it's actually Ó Mórdha (pronounced OH MORE-yA) meaning descended from the great one.

I've heard some Irish speakers within Clan O'Mórda pronounce it as OH-MORE-gah.
Could this be one of those regional quirks?

I have one that perhaps you could assist with pronounciation:
McReynolds (of Keppoch) = MacRanald = Mac Mhic Raonuill = pronounced ?


Also, I (like alot of folks) thought Holmes was English (thanks to Sherlock ), but I found out that it actually has Scottish origins(!). My World Book of Holmes is packed away so I can't reference it at the moment, but do you have any thoughts on this surname? (I know that Holmes is listed as a sept for Kennedy).

Thanks.

[Graywolf]

This is too great. OKay try this one - Breeden. As I understand the origin, the Bre is Celtic for hill, the den is from Saxon word "dun" for hill, and our family name originates from the town of Breedon-on-the-hill.

[slohairt]

Slohairt, thank you for all of your efforts in this thread. My daughter has married a young man named Henley. Any thoughts on Henley?

Many thanks

Tá fáilte romhat, A Sarge!

My guess would be English topographical origin. The last part ley is Anglo-Saxon for field or meadow. Hanley, however, is a different matter, it is usually derived from the Irish Ó hAinle.

[slohairt]

I've heard some Irish speakers within Clan O'Mórda pronounce it as OH-MORE-gah.
Could this be one of those regional quirks?

I have one that perhaps you could assist with pronounciation:
McReynolds (of Keppoch) = MacRanald = Mac Mhic Raonuill = pronounced ?


Also, I (like alot of folks) thought Holmes was English (thanks to Sherlock ), but I found out that it actually has Scottish origins(!). My World Book of Holmes is packed away so I can't reference it at the moment, but do you have any thoughts on this surname? (I know that Holmes is listed as a sept for Kennedy).

Thanks.

Boldhighlander,

1) Firstly, yes, it is a dialectic difference. The aspirated d (rendered as dh) is pronounced by some as a "y" sound, and by others as a hard "g" sound. Some modern Irish language spellings of the name omit the dh altogether, rendering it as Ó Móra. While we're on that topic, the apostrophe after the O prefix in an Irish surname is an Anglicisation itself, and is not part of the Irish language. It is always Ó, meaning descended from or grandson of. The O' is probably from English scribes confusing it with of. Also, the name should be spelled in Irish, Ó Mórdha or Ó Móra (depending on one's preference). By not aspirating (adding the "h") to the d, an Irish-speaker would pronounce the name as OH MORD-A. This confusion is often seen in Irish names today because the original Irish script did not use an h to represent aspiration after a consonant, but instead used a dot over the top of the letter. Many Irish names are mistakenly spelled this way; Domnall, instead of the correct, Domhnall, etc. People would forget to "replace" the dot with an H. Baffled? Sorry...

2) Mac Raonuill would be pronounced MAC RAIN-ILL. Mac Mhic Raonuill would be pronounced as MAC VICK RAIN-ILL. These are Scottish Gaelic spellings, the Irish would Mac Raonaill, but pronounced the same.

3) Etymologically speaking, the name Holmes is of Norse origin, from holmr. Therefore it can occur anywhere in the Isles.

[slohairt]

This is too great. OKay try this one - Breeden. As I understand the origin, the Bre is Celtic for hill, the den is from Saxon word "dun" for hill, and our family name originates from the town of Breedon-on-the-hill.

A Fhaol Liath,

I would say your etymology is more or less correct. The first Celtic element, bre (Goidelic brí, Brythonic bre) does indeed mean hill. However, it can also mean high and in this case I think that is probably more accurate. The Anglo-Saxon don/dun/den element means hill as well. Since naming a place hill-hill seems rather silly, I would suggest it likely means high hill.