Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?

[Phil]

I am not sure if perhaps you may be projecting viewpoints onto tourists to your country that they may not actually feel. I have been to Scotland many times but never held these views. But I may seem like I hold these views because of the type of destinations I like to see while I am there. But that is because we live in the modern world everyday, we use technology and all that all the time. When on vacation people want an escape from the hustle and bustle of the modern world. That is not to say that we see Scotland as an old fashioned and not up with the times. For instance when someone comes to the US for vacation I do not assume they don't appreciate the countries work on space programs and other engineering wonders because they only wanted to see the Statue of Liberty or Mount Rushmore. I do not think a tourist views America as being all rustic and a bit out of touch with the modern because they spent their entire time visiting old western towns and the grand canyon. Put simply you may be looking way too much into the viewpoints a tourist has of your wonderful country. Views they may actually not hold and thus getting frustrated that they see your country as being simple and quaint just because they like to see castles and listen to bagpipes. Just my take and certainly no offense is intended. I just wanted to say as a tourist of your lovely country that I completely understand that there is way more to Scotland then the tourist destinations. Just like every country in Western Europe and North America, it is complex and has much to offer. But when I am on vacation I want an escape and just to relax, just saying.

Thank you for your insight and I hope that it is a view shared by more of your countrymen. Of course no-one wants to come and see factories, power stations, industrial estates etc. and escapism is all that vacations are about, A chance to see things that you cannot at home and meet people from another culture. All excellent things to do and, hopefully, educational as well.

[Tobus]

Perhaps this is a puzzle to you coming from the land of the free and home of the brave where you can, no doubt freely roam, but, actually Scots were physically excluded from large tracts of their homeland by non-Scottish landowners protecting their deer stalking and grouse shooting. Just imagine if large tracts of Texas had been owned by Russians, for example. and they had forcibly excluded everyone from those lands. If this is what you call "improvement" then I wonder how your Texan compatriots would view it?

Actually, what you describe is very much the norm here in Texas. We have strong private-property laws and virtually no public land. If a fellow owns 825,000 acres (such as the famous King Ranch), he has every right to exclude people from entering his property. Just as I have the right to exclude anyone from coming onto my meager 15-acre homestead. Other states do have public land that is available for anyone to wander on, but not Texas. If I were to try randomly wandering onto a piece of land just to check it out, I would risk being shot. So in that respect, you Scots have more freedom to roam than we do.

We do not require another influx of rapacious land-grabbers, the likes of the carpet-baggers who followed your own civil war. What we seek are people devoted to the ideal of a prosperous Scotland, a land where the benefit of all was paramount and where social divisions did not exist.

I can understand why Scots would desire that sort of newcomer. But I rather tend to think it's an unrealistic expectation. People simply don't relocate their families and start a new life by bringing their talents and money to a new country without some personal benefit. The "rapacious land-grabbers" you describe in Scotland, just like the "carpet-baggers" we had down South after our Civil War, are very much the norm. Human beings as a whole (with very rare exceptions) are motivated by profit and self-gain, not by a simple love for humanity or a desire to help a bunch of strangers. Believe me, I wish it weren't so!

But aside from that, the UK has some pretty nasty immigration requirements. As a structural engineer in the construction industry, I would love the opportunity to find a decent job in Scotland and relocate there, helping build a new modern Scotland. But the immigration process makes it virtually impossible for me since I don't come from one of the countries they play favourites with. I daresay that the UK's immigration policy is largely to blame for the lack of influx of the type of people you desire.

[ThistleDown]

Actually, I wasn't talking about Donald Trump at all. Though I will take this opportunity to apologise for his behaviour on behalf of my fellow Americans who aren't insane. The man is an embarrassment and has been for some time.

What I was getting at is that Scotland has dealt with the influx of outsiders for a long time now. As in, many centuries. For example, there were many attempts by outsiders to improve roads, schools, etc., in the Highlands (and I'm not even talking about the government) many times in the past 400 years. Most of these attempts failed because the locals simply didn't want it, or were being manipulated. Through the centuries, as foreigners moved there, purchased land, and tried to do business there, it seems that Scots have developed a rather healthy distrust of them. And for good reason! In most cases, these ventures have resulted in problems for the people who live there. They have been exploited, removed from their jobs and homes, etc. They have lost much of their language, culture, traditions, and property due to the influx of outsiders. This is why I register surprise at hearing that "what Scottish people really want" is for more outsiders to come in, bring their money, and try to improve the nation. That hasn't worked too terribly well for the Scots in the past.


OK, so here I think I understand more where you're coming from. Scots would like people to bring their outside money and experience, but not their outside visions of how to help, right? I'm not sure it can ever work that way. Any time foreign people settle in an area, there will be changes that reflect where they came from. That's the nature of mixing cultures - which is one thing we Americans understand very well.

No need to apologise, Tobus, most in Scotland understand the man is simply an extreme example. There are just as fine examples from every culture: Scrooge McDuck springs immediately to mind for Scotland and perhaps Paul Bunyon for Canada. The unfortunate thing is that the Donald has a far greater adverse impact on lives than the hoarder or the lumberjack.

With reference to the rest of your post, everyone has an opinion that relates to himself, I suppose, but I see tourism and the sale of cultural icons such as whisky and tartan as of huge and on-going benefit to Scotland. The sad thing about the tourism industry in the UK is the severe decline in standards of service and the development of what is sometimes referred to as Blackpool mentality. Borderline rudeness in a country reknowned for its hospitality goes almost unrecognised for the impact it is having on this major source of revenue and employment.

[Woot22]

But aside from that, the UK has some pretty nasty immigration requirements. As a structural engineer in the construction industry, I would love the opportunity to find a decent job in Scotland and relocate there, helping build a new modern Scotland. But the immigration process makes it virtually impossible for me since I don't come from one of the countries they play favourites with. I daresay that the UK's immigration policy is largely to blame for the lack of influx of the type of people you desire.

Not sure if you have looked into it recently or not but they have a program for people in your position. That is to say, someone with a degree in engineering who wanted to move to Scotland. The last time I was there a few years ago there was an entire program dedicated to it trying to get people, even Americans, to move there if they had certain skill sets. Not sure of the merits of the program but here is a link to what I saw being advertised. They give extra "points" to educated people to help them move to Scotland.
http://www.talentscotland.com/worker...checklist.aspx

On a kind of humorous note they are advertizing Scotland in their banner ad exactly how the native Scots here on X-marks kind of disdain. It shows young men jumping in the air wearing kilts and holding bagpipes, too funny, as this relates to another conversation on this site. But what can you do accept educate ourselves on the matter I guess. And be glad we have people to turn to and ask questions like the many good folks here on this site.

[Phil]

I completely understand your annoyance at tourists. However, it's the price we pay by living in a capitalist society, in a big city where people from other countries want to visit.

I won't debate you on the affect lack of tourist trade would have on your life directly, but I will state that it would impact the local economy on multiple levels aside from hotels and starbucks (air travel, restaurants, museums, taxi service, size of shopping areas and breadth of product offerings, etc). Without tourist trade, yes there would be lower 'trash collection bills', but there would also be much less money in the local economy to pay the bills that were acrued. There would be much less need for services and businesses that are supported by the tourist trade which locals can utilize as well.

I have no idea of actual numbers for the following, but I am throwing out an argument "theory": If there are 5 Million people visiting a city per year pumping millions into the local economy (plus local population) and that city sustains 500 restaurants, how many restaurants could it support without those 5 millions tourists? Simple answer without trying to figure out the math: Much less.

Using myself as an example: As a kid, my parents had a shore house in Ocean City, NJ. Close friends of the family lived in OC NJ as well. We went down in the spring and fall, before and after tourist season. It was much calmer and relaxing without the hustle and bustle. During the summer months (Labor day to Memorial day), it is wall to wall tourists. Do businesses exist and run there year round? Yes. Do they rely on the tourist season "boom" to get through the winter? Yes. Could half as many businesses exist there without that summer boom? No. Would the local economy be nearly as strong without that tourist trade? No. Did I know I was going to have to endure overcrowded beaches and annoying shoobies (what we call day trippers and vacationers) during the summer? Yes, but it's the price we paid for enjoying the beach we called our second home. It's also the price you have to pay for choosing to live in a spot people want to visit.

I am sorry if I have come across as being annoyed by tourists ( although sometimes when I can't get on a bus home I suppose I am). I just don't see any great benefit personally accruing through tourism. I live here in Edinburgh because work brought me here, not through choice, as Glasgow was my natural home. If truth be told I tend to avoid the city during the hectic tourist months and events such as the Hogmanay celebrations mean that the heart of my own city is denied to me for one night a year (unless I am successful in getting and paying for a ticket to get in). Does this happen in any other city I wonder?
As to the local economy, I really wonder just how much benefit accrues. The tourist tat shops appear to employ mainly either their own ethnic groups or a smattering of eastern european immigrants (a feature of being members of the EU) and the majority of employees in the hospitality industry are also EU immigrants. Nothing wrong there unless you wonder why there is little or no benefit for locals. Certainly there are jobs for locals on tour buses and no doubt some locals are prospering running restaurants so it is not all bad news.

[Phil]

But aside from that, the UK has some pretty nasty immigration requirements. As a structural engineer in the construction industry, I would love the opportunity to find a decent job in Scotland and relocate there, helping build a new modern Scotland. But the immigration process makes it virtually impossible for me since I don't come from one of the countries they play favourites with. I daresay that the UK's immigration policy is largely to blame for the lack of influx of the type of people you desire.

As the position stands at present, immigration policy is reserved to the Westminster government. Please note I am not planning to stray into politics here but while Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom it cannot determine its own immigration policies. There is a desire by the Scottish Government to relax immigration precisely to attract such talent as your own and to overcome an ageing population so watch this space!

[Father Bill]

Misplaced response. Sorry.

[imrichmond]

I am sorry if I have come across as being annoyed by tourists ( although sometimes when I can't get on a bus home I suppose I am).

No need to apologize for that; it's perfectly understandable. Certainly, I and most of my fellow residents of a small coastal city on Canada's west coast think very unkind thoughts about our summer visitors when we have to wait anywhere from two to four hours to get on a ferry to take us home or to visit family in Vancouver. When we get left behind by the last ferry home of the day because it's full and we have to find a hotel room for the night, we can get downright hostile towards tourists. Our city is accessible only by ferry and air. Let's face it, residents in any tourist destination get frustrated by the summer hordes of visitors. Heck, even other tourists don't like crowds of tourists! I guess the only thing to do in tourist season is to leave home and annoy the locals elsewhere. If you can't fight 'em, join 'em.

[Downunder Kilt]

My take on this thread has borne out a number of things
Citizens of a country
1. Do not like to be told what to do with or how to manage their country’s assets
2. They do not like their icons used in a way that is disrespectful
3. They do not like an attitude of I’ll do want I want, how I want when it comes to the country’s assets, traditions or icons
4. They have a problem with outsiders trying to take over things that they cherish (traditions, icons, assets)
5, Tourists are more than welcome in the country, but they can cause interruptions to the daily life of the locals, but are welcomed and tolerated if they add to the community and do not try to become more local than the locals
6. Do not like outside criticism of their systems. (eg. Our way of doing this, that or the other thing is better than the way you do it)

Gee, sounds like the locals of the more than 20 countries that I have been to as a tourist over the last 40 years. And of course, the citizens of Australia feel the same way

[rondo]

I actually live in Scotland and have to endure, yes ENDURE the influx of tourists to my city every year. I have to try and negotiate the groups of people blocking pavements, the buses full of tourists etc. and what do I get from it all.

Well, Phil, you, and your fellow Scots, will not have to "ENDURE" me or my wife on our vacation next summer, or any other time for that matter.
Rondo
BTW, many of the Multi-nationals that you perceive to be "American" are in fact head quartered in tax havens like The Caymen Islands...the money being sucked out of your country isn't coming to the States just as our money isn't staying in the States...a little education can go a long way...just sayin'.