De-Anglicisation of Names

[gilmore]

A Fhaol Liath,

I would say your etymology is more or less correct. The first Celtic element, bre (Goidelic brí, Brythonic bre) does indeed mean hill. However, it can also mean high and in this case I think that is probably more accurate. The Anglo-Saxon don/dun/den element means hill as well. Since naming a place hill-hill seems rather silly, I would suggest it likely means high hill.

There are quite a few British surnames that come from the words for the same thing in 2 different languages, such as Cheatwood. It isn't at all uncommon.

[gilmore]

A Fhaol Liath,

I would say your etymology is more or less correct. The first Celtic element, bre (Goidelic brí, Brythonic bre) does indeed mean hill. However, it can also mean high and in this case I think that is probably more accurate. The Anglo-Saxon don/dun/den element means hill as well. Since naming a place hill-hill seems rather silly, I would suggest it likely means high hill.

There are quite a few British surnames that come from the words for the same thing in 2 different languages, such as the above example, as well as Cheatwood. It isn't at all uncommon.

[slohairt]

Agreed. And the etymology may very well be hill-hill, I was just suggesting a more logical etymology.

By the way, was the double posting deliberate?

[Graywolf]

Thanks,

So the town is either "High hill on-the-hill" or "Hill Hill on-the-hill". Either way, I have to wonder if we weren't a little slow. If you have to decribe where you live two or three times in its name, then you have to believe we were from the shallow end of the gene pool.

[BoldHighlander]

Interesting....thanks.

Boldhighlander,

1) Firstly, yes, it is a dialectic difference. The aspirated d (rendered as dh) is pronounced by some as a "y" sound, and by others as a hard "g" sound. Some modern Irish language spellings of the name omit the dh altogether, rendering it as Ó Móra. While we're on that topic, the apostrophe after the O prefix in an Irish surname is an Anglicisation itself, and is not part of the Irish language. It is always Ó, meaning descended from or grandson of. The O' is probably from English scribes confusing it with of. Also, the name should be spelled in Irish, Ó Mórdha or Ó Móra (depending on one's preference). By not aspirating (adding the "h") to the d, an Irish-speaker would pronounce the name as OH MORD-A. This confusion is often seen in Irish names today because the original Irish script did not use an h to represent aspiration after a consonant, but instead used a dot over the top of the letter. Many Irish names are mistakenly spelled this way; Domnall, instead of the correct, Domhnall, etc. People would forget to "replace" the dot with an H. Baffled? Sorry...

2) Mac Raonuill would be pronounced MAC RAIN-ILL. Mac Mhic Raonuill would be pronounced as MAC VICK RAIN-ILL. These are Scottish Gaelic spellings, the Irish would Mac Raonaill, but pronounced the same.

3) Etymologically speaking, the name Holmes is of Norse origin, from holmr. Therefore it can occur anywhere in the Isles.

[CEF]

Slohairt,
A very interesting thread.
Anything on the surname Foster?

Many thanks
Cef

[BoldHighlander]

Boldhighlander,
3) Etymologically speaking, the name Holmes is of Norse origin, from holmr. Therefore it can occur anywhere in the Isles.

I tried to add this to my other reply, but for some reason it wouldn't let me
Anyhow...

I had never ran across the Norse origin for Holmes, that is most interesting.
Here's what I've been able to dig up thus far:

Last Name Meaning & Genealogy Links for the Surname HOLMES
Meaning & Origin: A geographical surname from the northern Middle English holm, meaning "island" for an individual who lived on an island, or a piece of low-lying meadow lands near or surrounded by water.
Also, a geographic surname for someone who lived near where holly trees grew, from the Middle English holm.

Sometimes an Anglicized version of the Irish, Mac an Thomáis.

Surname Origin: English
Alternate Surname Spellings: HOLME, HUME, HOME, HOLM

===========================

Last name origins & meanings:

English (chiefly central and northern England): variant of Holme.
Scottish: probably a habitational name from Holmes near Dundonald, or from a place so called in the barony of Inchestuir.
Scottish and Irish: Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Thomáis, Mac Thómais (see McComb). In part of western Ireland, Holmes is a variant of Cavish (from Gaelic Mac Thámhais, another patronymic from Thomas).

Thanks again...this is a very interesting thread.

[slohairt]

Slohairt,
A very interesting thread.
Anything on the surname Foster?

Many thanks
Cef

I would say it is an English occupational name, cognitive with Forester. The Irish word for forest is coill or foraois. I can't remember what the Irish word for Forester would be exactly, but the term for Ranger is Maol Páirce. An Irish "translation" (for entertainment purposes only) would be Mac an Maol Páirce, pronounced MAC AN MAIL PAWRK-yA.

[slohairt]

I tried to add this to my other reply, but for some reason it wouldn't let me
Anyhow...

I had never ran across the Norse origin for Holmes, that is most interesting.
Here's what I've been able to dig up thus far:

Last Name Meaning & Genealogy Links for the Surname HOLMES
Meaning & Origin: A geographical surname from the northern Middle English holm, meaning "island" for an individual who lived on an island, or a piece of low-lying meadow lands near or surrounded by water.
Also, a geographic surname for someone who lived near where holly trees grew, from the Middle English holm.

Sometimes an Anglicized version of the Irish, Mac an Thomáis.

Surname Origin: English
Alternate Surname Spellings: HOLME, HUME, HOME, HOLM

===========================

Last name origins & meanings:

English (chiefly central and northern England): variant of Holme.
Scottish: probably a habitational name from Holmes near Dundonald, or from a place so called in the barony of Inchestuir.
Scottish and Irish: Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Thomáis, Mac Thómais (see McComb). In part of western Ireland, Holmes is a variant of Cavish (from Gaelic Mac Thámhais, another patronymic from Thomas).

Thanks again...this is a very interesting thread.

The northern English word holm, I believe, IS derived from the Norse holmr, as many place name elements in the north of England are derived from Norse. I'm speaking etymologically, of course. This does not mean that the bearers of the name are of Norse origin, merely the word they use as a surname is.

Mac Thomáis (the "an" would incorrect as it means "the") does indeed mean son of Tomás (Thomas) in Irish. This would be pronounced as MAC HOM-ISH. Mac Thomàis and Mac Tamhais are Scottish Gaelic and are pronounced MAC HOM-ISH and MAC TAV-ISH respectively.

McComb would be Anglicised from Mac Thoim meaning son of Tom.

[CelticMedic]

I have been told my Grandmothers father changed his name from Mc or MacGavin to Gavin because it "Sounded less Scot/Irish" so he could claim to be of British decent to potentail employers...is McGavin the base for Gavin or does it go further than that? Thanks.
My mothers maiden name was Doherty, which I have been to goes back to at least the 4th cent AD to (bare with me) O'Doctherian. (I have been told that this translates to Black King or Unlucky King, because he was killed and his family was scattered.
My name is Sommers, German name, which may be an occupational name, from Summoner, one who posts official notices or calls people before the autorities...but who knows.