Ghillie brogues - why the dislike and resentment..?

[FossilHunter]

Authenticity and historical references are kind of irrelevant, I feel.

Certainly, there are many references and descriptions to Highlanders' footwear of the past - and significantly from before the somewhat despised Revival era.

But authenticity of the ghillie-brogue is not what I was getting at, rather why the dislike of them.

My reason for asking is, that over the past 40 or 50 years, I have noticed a certain dislike or disdain for them - with advice being that a good Oxford or Derby is far preferable for kilt-wear.

It would be easy to argue and demonstrate that nothing about what we now consider as Highland dress has anything other than a passing resemblance or similar role to those that would have been common before the Dress Act. Even the kilt itself is now a highly-modified version of what went before, and the same kind of revival process and moderisation as a result of manufacturing and technological advances in footwear and other garments is to be expected.

Not liking the ghillie-brogue for reasons of comfort or style is one thing, but encouraging others to shun them is something quite different.

My curiosity is why a style of shoe that is so uniquely and distictly Highland, that has evolved from ancient styles into its present from over the past 200 years or so, is thought by some to be so unsuitable for kiltwear, and so undesirable on others.

I suspect the 'kilt-cops' have been at work again...

I can’t think of any other reason besides the hire element. Lots of guys have been burned by hire companies and outfitters telling them what they must have that certain elements, which are not untraditional in and of themselves, have become tells.

This was the first sponsored photo I found with a google search for “kilt hire for wedding.” Ghillie brogues are featured prominently. In fact they are featured in nearly all photos for the query. I really think it’s a simple as hire companies poisoning the well.

[kilted2000]

Authenticity and historical references are kind of irrelevant, I feel.

Certainly, there are many references and descriptions to Highlanders' footwear of the past - and significantly from before the somewhat despised Revival era.

But authenticity of the ghillie-brogue is not what I was getting at, rather why the dislike of them.

Not liking the ghillie-brogue for reasons of comfort or style is one thing, but encouraging others to shun them is something quite different.

My curiosity is why a style of shoe that is so uniquely and distictly Highland, that has evolved from ancient styles into its present from over the past 200 years or so, is thought by some to be so unsuitable for kiltwear, and so undesirable on others.

I suspect the 'kilt-cops' have been at work again...

It's possible that whatever the actual history of the various elements of Highland Dress, if the perception is that they are 'made-up' then that might taint them. Some people just avoid whatever they see as kilt hire style. Since when has fashion been completely rational?

[OC Richard]

Most Ghillies that are available in the US are rather chunky and inelegant...with their connection to pipe bands and hire, chunky soles and cheap construction are quite common.

So true!!

The modern mass-produced Ghillies that are sold by the thousands to Pipe Band people the world over generally have the cemented-on thick rubber soles.

The idea is that these "marching sole" Ghillies are more comfortable. Thousands of Pipe Band people would disagree.

BTW there's a regular occurrence at Highland Games which have big Pipe Band contests: invariably a band member will have the sole of one of his Ghillies just fall off. (That's what Duct Tape is for, right??)

Things were different in the mid-1970s when I joined my first band and bought my first pair of Ghillies. Mind you, only one person in the band owned Ghillies at the time I joined, a "mature gent", a piper who had served in the Cameron Highlanders in the Western Desert in WWII, who did loads of solo gigs and was a sharp dresser.

But the Pipe Major decided we should all get Ghillies, and I bought a pair at the next Highland Games.

The firm was Keltic. They had two styles of Ghillies to choose from: a heavy brogue with thick leather sole, and a lightweight shoe of supple leather. I picked the latter, and wore this pair for nearly 30 years. They were the most comfortable shoes of any sort I've ever worn (including trainers). I think I had them re-soled 4 times.

This was before Ghillies with cemented rubber soles had made their awkward debut.

Ghillie brogues are also inexorably linked to the kilt...

That's the very thing I like about Ghillies, they're a specific unique Highland Dress shoe.

...they cannot be worn with other clothes without appearing eccentric.

There were long stretches when Ghillies were the only black dress shoes I owned, and I often wore them with trousers. People rarely noticed. (Trousers are expected when performing on the Uilleann Pipes.)

I think the association with bands and hire has damaged their reputation in general but that doesn’t mean they cannot or should not have a place in the discussion of traditional civilian highland dress.

That's the thing, when I started kiltwearing Pipe Bands were just beginning to wear them. That 1970s Pipe Band, my first band, only started to get Ghillies in the late 1970s and would be the only band at Games wearing them, the other bands wearing either spats with military-style Full Dress, or buckled shoes with tartan hose and Evening Dress.

Also the nascent Kilt Hire Industry was yet to have it deleterious impact on traditional Highland Dress.

We all are a product of our age, and for my first decade of kiltwearing Ghillies had yet to acquire the dual stink of Kilt Hire and Pipe Bands. I'm simply unable to view Ghillies through the lens of someone who started kiltwearing when Ghillies were on the feet of every mannequin in every Kilt Hire shop window and being worn by every Pipe Band on the planet.

[OC Richard]

Wow, that's better than I usually see!!

No big fat chrome belt buckle bulging out from under the waistcoat, no nasty cheap white hose.

It does feature a ghastly ruche tie, made even uglier being white with a black shirt.

And the five-button high waistcoat with a Prince Charlie (which I admit I did once, before I got a proper waistcoat).

These all-black outfits do nothing for me.

[OC Richard]

I'm certain I have linked to this page before. The part about the early evolution of the shoe, from the "deerskin moccasins" to what we know today is interesting.

Thing is, they don't offer any evidence to prove a continuance of use during which the foot-covering of unknown appearance described in the 1542 John Elder letter evolved, through stages of development documented in iconography, into the heavy-soled hobnailed brogue which appears in Victorian times.

And various articles have shown that same old shoe which has a seam down the top. I looked it up, it was found in a cave in Armenia. Why multiple articles about the history of Ghillies shows an Armenian shoe, who can say.

For sure there's plenty of folk shoes from the Carpathian Krpec to the Balkan Opanak to the Aran Islands' Pamputai but these do not constitute iconographic evidence of use of something similar in the Highlands.

[FossilHunter]

So true!!

The modern mass-produced Ghillies that are sold by the thousands to Pipe Band people the world over generally have the cemented-on thick rubber soles.

The idea is that these "marching sole" Ghillies are more comfortable. Thousands of Pipe Band people would disagree.

BTW there's a regular occurrence at Highland Games which have big Pipe Band contests: invariably a band member will have the sole of one of his Ghillies just fall off. (That's what Duct Tape is for, right??)

Things were different in the mid-1970s when I joined my first band and bought my first pair of Ghillies. Mind you, only one person in the band owned Ghillies at the time I joined, a "mature gent", a piper who had served in the Cameron Highlanders in the Western Desert in WWII, who did loads of solo gigs and was a sharp dresser.

But the Pipe Major decided we should all get Ghillies, and I bought a pair at the next Highland Games.

The firm was Keltic. They had two styles of Ghillies to choose from: a heavy brogue with thick leather sole, and a lightweight shoe of supple leather. I picked the latter, and wore this pair for nearly 30 years. They were the most comfortable shoes of any sort I've ever worn (including trainers). I think I had them re-soled 4 times.

This was before Ghillies with cemented rubber soles had made their awkward debut.



That's the very thing I like about Ghillies, they're a specific unique Highland Dress shoe.



There were long stretches when Ghillies were the only black dress shoes I owned, and I often wore them with trousers. People rarely noticed. (Trousers are expected when performing on the Uilleann Pipes.)



That's the thing, when I started kiltwearing Pipe Bands were just beginning to wear them. That 1970s Pipe Band, my first band, only started to get Ghillies in the late 1970s and would be the only band at Games wearing them, the other bands wearing either spats with military-style Full Dress, or buckled shoes with tartan hose and Evening Dress.

Also the nascent Kilt Hire Industry was yet to have it deleterious impact on traditional Highland Dress.

We all are a product of our age, and for my first decade of kiltwearing Ghillies had yet to acquire the dual stink of Kilt Hire and Pipe Bands. I'm simply unable to view Ghillies through the lens of someone who started kiltwearing when Ghillies were on the feet of every mannequin in every Kilt Hire shop window and being worn by every Pipe Band on the planet.

What did your band and others wear before they had ghillies?

[OC Richard]

What did your band and others wear before they had ghillies?

Civilian pipe bands, from the time they first appeared in the 19th century up to around 1980, either wore military-style Full Dress with spats, or civilian Evening Dress with full tartan hose and buckled shoes.

I have a photo of a Highland Games massed bands in 1972 and there's not a single pair of ghillies, nor a single Glengarry to be seen.



Our band had worn Full Dress for gigs and competition up until around 1978 when for competition at Games we switched to this outfit. Initially only two guys had Ghillies, but we were all told to get them.

As you see we just wore ordinary black shoes (the shoes we wore under our spats in Full Dress).

[OC Richard]

Here's Kilt Hire Ghillies at their worst, wtih Viking-style laces.

(On the left is a Bulgarian folk costume with their traditional white wool wrapping that goes from ankle to knee, held in place with long leather straps. I'm guessing it was folk costumes like this that inspired the Hollywood Viking leg wraps.)

[MacKenzie]

Thing is, they don't offer any evidence to prove a continuance of use during which the foot-covering of unknown appearance described in the 1542 John Elder letter evolved, through stages of development documented in iconography, into the heavy-soled hobnailed brogue which appears in Victorian times.

Like I said, by the mid-1600s we had a shoe with a heel, a sole and a tongue.

For sure there's plenty of folk shoes from the Carpathian Krpec to the Balkan Opanak to the Aran Islands' Pamputai but these do not constitute iconographic evidence of use of something similar in the Highlands.

Didn't say there was. What I said was, how did it come to pass that the "traditional highland shoe" would be a devolved shoe?

[Patty Logan]

well maybe I'm not the only one. I could never get them tied up. they would always came apart. The intricate detailing would also make it impossible for me to shine them up as well