"Viking Style" Brouge lacing?

[Liam]

Correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the majority of kilt-wearers rely on the kilt hire industry. When I was younger it was necessary to hire a dinner suit(or tuxedo) do attend many functions and the attire provided was accepted without question. Here, however, we have a community who have decided they are above this hire industry and, as a result, hold it in a degree of disdain. Ghillie brogues are no longer to be worn, especially if, horror of horrors, the laces are twined up the legs, white socks are tantamount to a pact with the devil and, heaven forbid ruche ties are a definite no no. Has anyone ever stepped back and wondered whether their dress choices have degenerated into a strictly regimented and confined range of options. Do they stay awake at night wondering if their socks might clash with their kilt or their sporran be unsuitable to wear alongside their belt? I sometimes wonder how young people in Scotland or anywhere else for that matter, would regard the strict guidelines that must be followed here but I think I know the answer to that. They would dress in any way they saw fit.

I haven't entered into the fray on this subject, but will now. Ivor, I believe you are wrong. Kilt wearers on this forum wear kilts far more that those who rely on the kilt hire industry for a wedding or a Burns' supper. We are not above the kilt hire industry, far from it, but they are not in the business of tailoring or providing quality or bespoke apparel. They are in the business of providing rental outfits and out of necessity have a limited selection of tartan, sizes etc. As for your comment about the young people, yes they will dress however they wish -
often for the shock value, (we all were young once) .... and the tartan army is a fine example, and I think they are great. Those in Canada will understand that I am a Saskatchewan Roughrider supporter and we can wear some pretty outlandish outfits in support of our team including water melons on our heads and yes in my case a kilt.
Slainte....

[Silmakhor]

There's nothing wrong with white/ecru kilt hose - the issue is that they became sort of the default, which of course people want to get away from. And the only problem with "viking lacing" is that it doesn't really work. And there's nothing wrong with kilt hire at all - it provides a valued service that, one would guess, helps keep the broader tradition alive.

If you want to check out "restrictive," look into the conventions around Norwegian bunad.

[FossilHunter]

Correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the majority of kilt-wearers rely on the kilt hire industry. When I was younger it was necessary to hire a dinner suit(or tuxedo) do attend many functions and the attire provided was accepted without question.

To be fair, the tuxedo hire industry is trash as well. In the US at least.

[Jock Scot]

Correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the majority of kilt-wearers rely on the kilt hire industry. When I was younger it was necessary to hire a dinner suit(or tuxedo) do attend many functions and the attire provided was accepted without question. Here, however, we have a community who have decided they are above this hire industry and, as a result, hold it in a degree of disdain. Ghillie brogues are no longer to be worn, especially if, horror of horrors, the laces are twined up the legs, white socks are tantamount to a pact with the devil and, heaven forbid ruche ties are a definite no no. Has anyone ever stepped back and wondered whether their dress choices have degenerated into a strictly regimented and confined range of options. Do they stay awake at night wondering if their socks might clash with their kilt or their sporran be unsuitable to wear alongside their belt? I sometimes wonder how young people in Scotland or anywhere else for that matter, would regard the strict guidelines that must be followed here but I think I know the answer to that. They would dress in any way they saw fit.

Let me say right away that there is nothing wrong with kilt hire. Those that wear it are usually not regular kilt wearers and use the services of the kilt hire industry on an occasional as needed basis. From that perspective, that is a very sensible financial option.

However the garments offered by the hire industry cannot ever be described accurately as traditional kilt attire. Where the discussions go deeper on this website is persuading, convincing even, those who have no kilt attire heritage to assist them to alter their preconceived ideas and I have to say , ignorance too, mainly gained from internet pictures that are posted by the hire industry and I am afraid the “ look at me” pictures of the enthusiastic but “uneducated”kilt wearer who genuinely thinks what he is wearing traditional kilt attire.

Any kilt attire is expensive so guidance from those that know is really helpful to those who want to know and can afford to purchase their own kilt outfit. Those of us who have been on this website for a while, have seen many “look at me” pictures of a person who has spent their hard earned loot on the incorrect garments, thinking its traditional and to those who know and are kind enough and let it be said, brave enough, to disappoint an enthusiastic new kilt wearer that his new attire is not traditional.

Some receiving that news are grateful and some are mightily disappointed and are more than a little miffed. I don’t blame them! This website does sterling work in steering the kilt newcomer and too often the not so new, newcomer, in the right direction despite the "heavy flak" that often comes with that good advice.

[Ivor]

What sparked this discussion really was viewing this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=hvHeTArCnYQ - showing groups of Scottish country dancers of which the majority of the men taking part are obviously wearing the dreaded white socks. This raises an obvious question as to what is right or does it just boil down to a matter of personal choice?

[Jock Scot]

What sparked this discussion really was viewing this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=hvHeTArCnYQ - showing groups of Scottish country dancers of which the majority of the men taking part are obviously wearing the dreaded white socks. This raises an obvious question as to what is right or does it just boil down to a matter of personal choice?

Well, yes it is personal choice, but.........

In my youth, some 8 decades ago, we were taught the difference between civilian kilt attire, military kilt attire, band kilt attire and entertainers kilt attire. When seen like that and understood, it was/is easy to differentiate one from another. It still holds true today.


I have just looked at the video that was mentioned here and bearing in mind the above, my instant thought is that these people are entertainers, and are dressed in this case for dancing. Therefore they are not dressed in traditional civilian kilt attire and should not be used as an an example of THCD. These people in the video are attired perfectly for their activity, entertaining.

[Tobus]

Correct me if I’m wrong but my understanding is that the majority of kilt-wearers rely on the kilt hire industry. When I was younger it was necessary to hire a dinner suit(or tuxedo) do attend many functions and the attire provided was accepted without question. Here, however, we have a community who have decided they are above this hire industry and, as a result, hold it in a degree of disdain. Ghillie brogues are no longer to be worn, especially if, horror of horrors, the laces are twined up the legs, white socks are tantamount to a pact with the devil and, heaven forbid ruche ties are a definite no no. Has anyone ever stepped back and wondered whether their dress choices have degenerated into a strictly regimented and confined range of options. Do they stay awake at night wondering if their socks might clash with their kilt or their sporran be unsuitable to wear alongside their belt? I sometimes wonder how young people in Scotland or anywhere else for that matter, would regard the strict guidelines that must be followed here but I think I know the answer to that. They would dress in any way they saw fit.

It may be true that a majority of kilt-wearers rely on hire shops, I wouldn't know. My intent with my previous comment was not to say that the hire industry should be avoided. I was just pointing out that their illustrations should not in any way be relied upon as a source for examples on how to wear anything correctly. A good portion of their items and advice come from people and places that are unfamiliar with local cultural norms.

I don't know why discussions of this nature always come down to this same debate. I don't stay awake at night worrying about wearing the kilt (and its related accessories) correctly. But I do put thought into it when I'm getting dressed, just as any reasonable person puts thought into what they're wearing when dressing for school, church, work, etc. I might want to wear knee-high striped gym socks, swim trunks, cowboy boots with spurs, a polo shirt with a bowtie, and a bandana on my head to church because these are all typical items worn in America, but then I would think to myself, "no, that would look stupid/inappropriate and this combination is one of those things that people in my country inherently understand is just not done."

But I realise that someone who didn't grow up in this culture might not understand that. If they ask the question, I would explain to them that it's not really the right way to wear this clothing. Not because there are "rules" or "strict guidelines" against it, but because it's just, well, weird. And in fact, people who choose to dress that way are usually doing so to make some sort of social statement. If this person offered a bunch of pushback about how we Americans were just too rigid in our dress guidelines, I would be scratching my head pretty much the same way as I'm scratching my head over your comments here. If it's a counter-culture look you're after, or a social statement, or attention, then by all means wear any of your clothing however you wish. Short of breaking actual obscenity laws, no one is going to stop you. But do be aware that just like in any culture around the world, there are normal and established ways of wearing things. People who grew up in that culture, and people who want to be respectful of it, generally try to understand and follow the norms instead of lecturing them about how their norms are too strict.

[Ivor]

Not having grown up in a kilt-wearing culture, as I suppose many here can join with, my only route to kilt-wearing is the information available mostly of which is online. There is no “gold standard” available only what can be discovered here and elsewhere but when contrasting views are presented as irrefutable then only confusion is the result. So what does one do? Unquestioningly follow the just one source or seek a range of views. I don’t believe that the socks one chooses or how you tie your shoelaces could ever breach “obscenity laws” so a response of that nature seems unnecessary unless it is an attempt to curtail discussion about aspects which I am seeking to clarify. If, indeed, it is not allowable to raise any questions about entrenched views then all I need to know is that is not something to be raised here and that will be an end to it.

[FossilHunter]

Not having grown up in a kilt-wearing culture, as I suppose many here can join with, my only route to kilt-wearing is the information available mostly of which is online. There is no “gold standard” available only what can be discovered here and elsewhere but when contrasting views are presented as irrefutable then only confusion is the result. So what does one do? Unquestioningly follow the just one source or seek a range of views. I don’t believe that the socks one chooses or how you tie your shoelaces could ever breach “obscenity laws” so a response of that nature seems unnecessary unless it is an attempt to curtail discussion about aspects which I am seeking to clarify. If, indeed, it is not allowable to raise any questions about entrenched views then all I need to know is that is not something to be raised here and that will be an end to it.

I don’t think anyone here has suggested that high laces or white hose are obscene or that you are not permitted to ask questions about them.

However, if you ask for opinions you also have to be prepared for opinions you may not like. That’s the nature of discourse.

[FossilHunter]

What sparked this discussion really was viewing this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=hvHeTArCnYQ - showing groups of Scottish country dancers of which the majority of the men taking part are obviously wearing the dreaded white socks. This raises an obvious question as to what is right or does it just boil down to a matter of personal choice?

Some questions that occurred to me as I watched this video.

-Are these men habitual kilt wearers?

-If not, is their outfit more akin to costume/uniform worn for the dance?

-Are they wearing actual ghillie brogues or dancing ghillies? More akin to ballet slippers. Are those laced differently? I honestly don’t know.

-Is country dance hard on socks, especially when the dancers practice regularly? Is so, could cheap white socks be chosen for economy over style?

A point Jock has made in the past is that one has to be careful when trying to gauge traditional dress from photos, pipers, royals, etc. Context is vital or all kinds of erroneous assumptions might be made.