Bravura!

[Archangel]

[QUOTE=Ranald]

Painting in broad strokes, it is easy to see why and how a 17th and 18th century Highlander would have been a rough character. But, I am sure there was a degree of kindness, compassion and hospitality among their ranks and within their communities (Same as the Vikings and Normans that brought the kilt to the British Isles and introduced it to the Anglo-Saxons that had settled there after the Romans departed).


Where did you get this snippit of info, if you refering to the sagas I think you need more evidence to support your line of thought.
Sorry for being off topic but evidence I sought out suggests that vikings and saxons did not wear kilts.

Which one were you after? Kindness and compassion for each people, I think we can document. The clothing migration has already been covered and I don't think that's as well supported.

[macwilkin]

I am fairly sure warriors all over the globe had their own code. Some were better than others, some held to more honourable causes, and some had no honour at all. Scotland was no different. Infact, even though I only know a little on this subject, I would dare venture a guess that the Scots were far more honourable in their warrior code than the English, who time and time again broke treaty after treaty and was constantly backstabbing anybody and everybody they could.

Being violent and dangerous and dare I say, "barbaric" does not make you any less of a human being. Quite the opposite. Some of the greatist people on this earth have been barbarians. Ghengis Khan. Atilla the Hun. William Wallace. (Yes, he was considered a barbarian by the victors, those who write history)

Acutally, Dread, the Scots could be just as "backstabbing" and cruel as you charge the English wi' being; just ask the Comyns, who opposed the Bruce's claim to the Scottish Throne, and found themselves vilified as the "traitors". Wallace was an exception to the Anglo-Norman gentry in Scotland, such as the Bruces, Comyns, etc. that many times put personal interests above patriotism, and even Wallace supported the claim of John Balliol (a relative of the Comyns) to the throne.

There are many examples of Scots betraying fellow Scots in history, not only in the Highlands, but especially on the Borders among the Border Reivers, as well as English betraying English. I could go on and on with examples.

English-bashing is easy, but not always accurate and based in fact. History is not so black and white. Before we start to verbally attack the folks "south of the [Anglo-Scottish] border", we should also remember that many of our members here are from England, lest we say something that might hurt or offend them. Good natured kidding is one thing, but charging the English wi' "constantly backstabbing" is dabbling in generalization.

T.

[motorman4life]

Where did you get this snippit of info, if you refering to the sagas I think you need more evidence to support your line of thought.
Sorry for being off topic but evidence I sought out suggests that vikings and saxons did not wear kilts.

From several sources.
Viking Age Scotland saw a major influx of Scandinavian settlers and conquerors in Scotland and the surrounding islands. Settlers from Norway came to the Shetlands, the Orkneys, the Hebridies, the Isle of Man, the Western Islands, and parts of the Scottish mainland, attracted because the land and climate were similar to that back home in Scandinavia, with the added attraction of their proximity to the profitable Viking centers in Ireland and England. The Vikings lived next to and intermarried with the native Celtic populations. In large part the Norse settlements in this area comprised the Earldom of Orkney, while the Western Isles were ruled by Celto-Norse settlers.

Archaeology and other sources show, however, that the original settlement of the Vikings in parts of Scotland and the North Atlantic islands in many cases began earlier, and was a part of the often violent conquest and settlement of the Vikings outside of their Scandinavian homeland.

(BTW, for more on Vikings in Scotland, go to http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/scotland.htm Lots of great info there, including names, dates and locations).

That said, the Oxford English Dictionary states that the word kilt comes from Middle English, and is probably of Scandinavian origin, probably from the Danish word kilte, meaning 'to tuck up.' The term kilt is a Scots term (Scots is an English dialect), not the Gaelic term for the belted plaid. The Gaelic term for a kilt is breacan feile for the belted plaid, or feileadh beag for the modern kilt.

This is from kiltsnight.com
Webster's Dictionary (come on, it's not as if we can trust the Oxford Dictionary and the damn English with something as important as the definition of the word kilt) defines the kilt thusly - 1. Kilt, a knee-length pleated skirt usually of tartan worn by men in Scotland, chiefly of the Highlands and by Scottish Regiments in the British armies.

Definition of Kilt
Two additional items of interest, however, bare much closer scrutiny, these also from Webster's Dictionary. The first definition of Kilt is 1. Scandanavian in origin, from the verb 'kilten' - kjalta, fold of a gathered skirt. So kilt is used chiefly, 1. to tuck up (as a skirt) 2. to equip with a kilt ~ vi : to move nimbly. The second is Kilter: origin unknown - orderly arrangement; proper disposition; good condition: now always preceded by in or out of.

Now let's see if we can use what we just deducted from our research in a proper sentence, lads. - Imagine the coast of Scotland some time in the eighth century. A Viking from Norway came ashore off his longboat, (Scandinavian origin 'kjalta') 'kilted' (tucked up) his skirt in order to 'quickly' (to move nimbly) give the locals a good thrashing, made off with the women and other valuables and then everything was 'kilter' once again (orderly arrangement; proper disposition; good condition).

The Viking Skirt
The local lads in both Scotland and Ireland knew a good thing when they saw it. So they donned the Viking skirt and, not speaking much Old Norse, called it a kilt. But the Scots were so adept at this new fashion and all that went with it that the kilt has forever become associated in the eyes of the rest of the world with Scotland. Good on ya, lads. Scotland, forever! And we've been thrashing the English ever since, when not busy thrashing each other.

Lastly, if you are still not convinced, try browsing over to http://www.myclan.com/clanship/tartan/history.php
Lost of info there. All consistent with the above.

Happy reading.

[Dreadbelly]

Acutally, Dread, the Scots could be just as "backstabbing" and cruel as you charge the English wi' being; just ask the Comyns, who opposed the Bruce's claim to the Scottish Throne, and found themselves vilified as the "traitors". Wallace was an exception to the Anglo-Norman gentry in Scotland, such as the Bruces, Comyns, etc. that many times put personal interests above patriotism, and even Wallace supported the claim of John Balliol (a relative of the Comyns) to the throne.

There are many examples of Scots betraying fellow Scots in history, not only in the Highlands, but especially on the Borders among the Border Reivers, as well as English betraying English. I could go on and on with examples.

English-bashing is easy, but not always accurate and based in fact. History is not so black and white. Before we start to verbally attack the folks "south of the [Anglo-Scottish] border", we should also remember that many of our members here are from England, lest we say something that might hurt or offend them. Good natured kidding is one thing, but charging the English wi' "constantly backstabbing" is dabbling in generalization.

T.

I agree. I remember a certain dinner party where the Douglases were served the head of a bull and then mercilessly slaughtered. It truly was bad on both sides.

That said, we still have a lasting legacy of oppression that is still in place today.

[Archangel]

From several sources.
Viking Age Scotland
The Viking Skirt
The local lads in both Scotland and Ireland knew a good thing when they saw it. So they donned the Viking skirt and, not speaking much Old Norse, called it a kilt.
Lastly, if you are still not convinced, try browsing over to http://www.myclan.com/clanship/tartan/history.php
Lost of info there. All consistent with the above.

Happy reading.

Sorry to argue but none of my references have a viking skirt worn by men. They wore tunic and trousers, sometimes a cloak. The women wore pleated petticoats, if that's any help. Apparently, the viking brooch was copied from Irish/Scot designs.
Don't want to get caught up in yet another kilt origin thread but this concept doesn't work. Do you want me to post my references?

No point in romanticizing the vikings, they were not much more than travelling merchants with bad PR. Not a whole lot better, or worse, than anybody else at the time. No, wait, I'll go with a bit better: they had a structure in a time of chaos.

[macwilkin]

I agree. I remember a certain dinner party where the Douglases were served the head of a bull and then mercilessly slaughtered. It truly was bad on both sides.

That said, we still have a lasting legacy of oppression that is still in place today.

I will not argue the fact that the English-Scottish relationship has not always been equal or fair; far from it. But "oppression" in the past is not a justification for vilifying an entire nationality in the present.

T.

[Dreadbelly]

I will not argue the fact that the English-Scottish relationship has not always been equal or fair; far from it. But "oppression" in the past is not a justification for vilifying an entire nationality in the present.

T.

And I would agree to that statement. However, that "oppression" is still firmly in place today, in this modern age.

I love the people... Dislike the actions. I bear no malice to any single English person. I do in fact, bear a great deal of malice to any system of oppression. There is a difference. I do not seek to make the English people out as villians. Most are just that. People. Going about their daily lives. The sort of oppression that many of those people live under leaves me a little hot under the collar.

I hope this clears up my stance a bit.

And I am more than glad to clarify my position with you. There are many souls in the world, but very few are as open to discusion about opposing viewpoints as you are Todd.

**Tips tam**

[Ranald]

Motorman, don't get me wrong,mysef ( a viking re-enactor) and many many others would love to prove the origins of the kilt to the dark ages, but simple put there is no evidence to support this claim.
A couple of quotes from two dictionaries will not cut it, sorry,but what will is arcealogical evidence (burial mound),a carving (wood or stone) a scroll or book like find ( book of Kells).
Do you not think that when the vikings attacked the monks on Iona that in their writtings after the event they would miss barbarians in kilts with bare legs, I think not.
Please don't take this idea you have as read, do your homework, you have to look in several resources before it would be taken as factual.
Sorry for any spelling mistakes!

[Doc Hudson]

If you accuse me of simply pouring gas on the fire, I really can't deny it. But here goes anyway.

Not that I give their idea much more credence than you do, Jarls of Lochlann attributes their kilt designs to Viking influence, and mention that the very word kilt comes from the Old Norse kjalt. http://www.thejarlsoflochlann.com/Kilts/special.html

Also at Jarls of Lochlann, they offer for sale a Book/CD_Rom set of Viking designs described as:

bold, fanciful designs featured here have been adapted from authentic Viking metalwork, textiles, stone carvings, and ceramics. Depicted are interwoven motifs reminiscent of Celtic art, real and mythological creatures, dragon-slaying heroes on horseback, and much more.

The cover is illustrated with some of the designs, the one at the bottom, left of center is a warrior wearing some sort of skirt-like garment. (Though to tell the truth, the image looks more like a Mayan or Aztec carving to me rather than a Scandinavian.)

Let's face it, every culture had a skirt-like garment for men at some point in time. The kilt as we know it today is of Scottish origin, but we can not be certain of it's ancestry. So if you are going to fault Motorman's scholarship, you will have to challenge the assertation of Jarls of Lochlann as well.

Care to give it a whirl?

[Archangel]

If you accuse me of simply pouring gas on the fire, I really can't deny it. But here goes anyway.

Not that I give their idea much more credence than you do, Jarls of Lochlann attributes their kilt designs to Viking influence, and mention that the very word kilt comes from the Old Norse kjalt. http://www.thejarlsoflochlann.com/Kilts/special.html

Also at Jarls of Lochlann, they offer for sale a Book/CD_Rom set of Viking designs described as:
The cover is illustrated with some of the designs, the one at the bottom, left of center is a warrior wearing some sort of skirt-like garment. (Though to tell the truth, the image looks more like a Mayan or Aztec carving to me rather than a Scandinavian.)

Let's face it, every culture had a skirt-like garment for men at some point in time. The kilt as we know it today is of Scottish origin, but we can not be certain of it's ancestry. So if you are going to fault Motorman's scholarship, you will have to challenge the assertation of Jarls of Lochlann as well.

Care to give it a whirl?

I'm easy, I can fault them, what do you want me to do now?
What standard are you looking for in a historical discussion? We are not likely to conjure up a long dead viking who will state, "I never wore a skirt but my wife wears a pleated dress"

Don't know how far the mod will let us go off-topic, but if I remember from this morning, it's now on another thread.

The cd-rom is nice, my wife uses the Celtic one for her writing, but that only establishes cultural migration. Same as the word itself, basically any word that has k or an sk start is from Viking. Nobody's even sure where the word Viking comes from, one position is that it is the same root as by in by-law.

What was the topic again? Oh, yeah, noble barbarians or civilized wimp: Rousseau covered it years ago.