4 yard vs 8 yard - Part Two

[way2fractious]

If I could have a 16 oz weathered Ferguson with a knife pleat I wouldn't suffer kilt envy ever!!! Since I can't sew and don't have a machine to learn on I'll have to wait until... But one day... one day...

Cheers! Bill

You're assuming that kilts in 16 oz wool are machine sewn? Never fear, wool kilts are best when hand sewn, and you could too do it, with normal eyes and fingers.

I had 4 yards of Weathered Ferguson double width, but one-half of it was used for the box-pleated kilt. The other half could make another box-pleated kilt for a slim individual.

It's odd, but even wearers of knife-pleated kilts look askance at a box-pleat wearer. Except the folks at the Ferguson clan tent, who dug out their cameras to photograph their "colors" in an interesting style variation.

[Alan H]

Pleater makes a good point, and it's a reason NOT to buy tartan with a set less than 4-inches. 4.5 inches is pushing it, IMHO, 5 inches is fine, and 6 is great. If your tartan is less than 4 inches in the sett, you'll be pleating double-setts. That's OK, but you'll need more material.

In My Humble Opinion.... I am no expert, eh?

Anyway, here's the point. If the sett is 6 inches, then let's work out how deep the pleats will be, if you use a 1 inch reveal.

OK, the reveal is 1 inch. That leaves 5 inches for the rest of the pleat. That will be divided in half, right? So that means that the "depth" of the pleat is 2.5 inches. Get out a ruler and look at that. Hmmm... OK. 2.5 inches is a fair bit, eh?

Now how about a 4.5 inch sett? If you reveal 1 inch, that leaves 3.5 inches for the rest of the pleat. Ooooo...so this pleat is only 1.75 inches deep. That's not very deep. It's OK, but I sure wouldn't want to go any less than this. My Holyrood 5 yard from Caledonia kilts is like this. It looks good.

My Stillwater Black Watch has a 4 inch sett. The reveal is about .5 - .6 inches, and the depth of the pleat is about 1.75 inches. It has 33 pleats. The pleat depth works OK, but at least my Stillwater has a double-depth (two seets) deep pleat about every 5th pleat. This adds weight. Basically the way they get away with the small sett (4 inches) is by putting in more pleats, and therefore using small reveals. This makes the pleat depth acceptable.

[Panache]

The sett is the repeat of the pattern - I put the 0 of the ruler on the left edge of some prominant stripe and measure to the exact same spot in the next repeat of the pattern.

If it is only 5 inches that would mean a pleat having to fit into that measurement - with a 1 inch show the pleat would be a rather measly 2 inches deep.

Still, if it is a heavy material that might be enough.

Now I'm really confused. I was measuring the tartan (Galbraith Ancient) on my cap and it would appear that the sett is only 3 1/3 inches long! Would the tartan pattern be shrunk for a cap or tie? If so what is the best way to find out the sett length for kilt material?

Cheers

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Any tartan can be woven to any size sett, depending on the use intended for the fabric. In general, the ligher weight tartans have smaller setts because they weill be used for things like scarves, ties, etc. The heavier weight tartans are used primarily for kilting and have larger setts. I prefer something between 6 and 9 inches for kilting, myself.

Aye,
Matt

[Scottish Chi]

Way2fractious,
Thanks for the statement of confidence but it will be a little while before I could consider a major time consuming project as making a kilt. In the meantime I will look into the Reader's Digest book on sewing and Barb's "The Art of Kiltmaking" as has been recommended.

Pleat reveal and depth are starting to make a little more sense. What is the sett for the Weathered Ferguson you used? Also do you have a picture of your kilt (front and back)? I have not seen a box pleated kilt and you have my interest.

Cheers! Bill

[Alan H]

We are very used to thinking of our pants as being sized by waist size. However, I am starting to come to the conclusion that honestly, we should start talking about kilts by the HIP MEASUREMENT, not the waist measurement. It's the hip measurement that defines how much material will be in the kilt, not the waist measurement. You taper the kilt from hip to waist, right...not "expand" the kilt from waist to hip. Caledonia kilts told me that their default construction technique was to assume that the difference between the mans waist measurement and hip measurement was six inches. If your measurements varied from that, he wanted you to let him know when ordering the kilt. For me, that works out fine, my waist is 40 and my hips (butt) is 46.

So Panache, for you I will assume that your waist is 34, and your hips (butt) is 40 inches. Your tartan has a 5-inch sett.

OK, so again.....this is a ROUGH ESTIMATE, I'm totally ignoring the 1-2 inch ofset that comes when you calculate "splits" (See Barb's book for information on "splits") If your hips are 40 inches, then half of that measurement will be covered in pleats, right? OK, so if 20 inches is covered with tartan, pleated to the sett, and the sett is 5 inches, then that's 4 setts-worth.

So to cover Panache's bum, we will have the equivalent of 4 setts-width of pleated tartan to make that up.

OK, if we used 1-inch reveals, then that would be 5 pleats per sett, right? It's a 5-inch sett..... But that means there's only 20 pleats across Panache's backside. That's OK, but if I were Panache, I'd want more pleats, so let's do 6 pleats per sett. That makes 24 pleats...very nice. He's a pretty trim guy (I've met him) so I think that will look good. If he wants to go hog-wild he can go for 7 pleats per sett, but that's gonna cost him in labor, and the reveals are going to get pretty small.

6 pleats in a 5-inch sett means that each reveal will be 5/6ths of an inch....these are reasonably narrow pleats. This is gonna look GREAT.

OK, back to calculating how much fabric he needs.....

We decided that 24 pleats 'round his rump would look good, so that means 24 setts-worth of material. 24 setts x 5 inches = 120 inches, or ten feet.

Throw in a yard for the over-apron and a yard for the under-apron, and that's sixteen feet of material. Five yards is 15 feet. So to safe, I'd buy three yards of double-width cloth and know that I had a bit extra. The leftovers can be made into flashes and a bow tie, and he'll almost certainly have enough for a sash or a tartan-front vest for the Flame Haired Celtic Amazon Goddess.


WHAT IF............ What if Panache decided that He wanted even MORE pleats...EIGHT per sett-equivalent across his backside? Let's go hog-wild. That would give him 32 pleats, which is a bluidy lot of freakin' pleats on a 34-inch waist.. The pleat reveal would then be 5/8 of an inch...Stillwater size. I have to admit this looks good, but he will PAY on the labour end for this. Anyway, hhow much fabric does he need?

32 pleats means 32 setts, right? 32 setts X 5 inches = 160 inches.

OK, throw in a yard for the under apron and a yard for the over-apron and you've got a total length of cloth of 160 + 72 = 232 inches.

Team... that's 6.5 yards. Not eight, not seven...6.5 yards.

If he wanted 28 pleats, which would look GREAT he'd be using just about exactly 6 yards of single-width material.

For a kiltmaker to cram eight yards of wool around Panaches butt, he/she'd have to pleat double-setts all over the place for no reason and basically just waste material. And then, to cut the massive bulk of useless material in the small of Panche's back, they CUT IT OUT!!!!

Now, tell me how this makes any sort of sense at all? Put in excess material you don't need...then cut half of it out and PAY FOR THE LABOUR TO DO IT ALL???? It'd cost more in material, it'd cost more in labour, it's just a waste.

OK, it makes sense if you're wearing a kilt in Minnesota in December, eh? But here in California, it's just plain pointless.

Six yard kilts, my friends....six yard kilts.

Or, like Matt says, four yard box kilts in heavy material....

NOTE: Panache, find a vendor for your tartan and just write them, asking what the 13 or 16 ounce kilting wool sett size is. Alternatively you can buy a swatch for a few bucks and measure it yourself, just to be SURE. Matt is entirely right, the exact same tartan can be woven in different sett sizes, depending on the materials makeup and purpose. The stuff in your hat may (in fact, probably is not) the same stuff that you'll buy for kilting.

[way2fractious]

Now I'm really confused. I was measuring the tartan (Galbraith Ancient) on my cap and it would appear that the sett is only 3 1/3 inches long! Would the tartan pattern be shrunk for a cap or tie? If so what is the best way to find out the sett length for kilt material?

Cheers

I have a cotton dress shirt from Lands End in Dress MacPherson tartan. Each sett is less than 1 inch. Many online tartan retail sites, such as The Scottish Weaver, list the sett size for each of their offerings.

What is the sett for the Weathered Ferguson you used? Also do you have a picture of your kilt (front and back)? I have not seen a box pleated kilt and you have my interest.

As I recall, the sett for the Weathered Ferguson is 8 1/2 inches. Pics are here: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/shanna...aAf6EB3JHhbDWY

[Panache]

All I can say guys is W O W ! There is a heck of a lot of thought (and engineering) that goes into sewing! Thanks for all the great information.

Cheers

[efer]

Panache, let us know what you decide...just curious.

I'm frettin' about what to get next I recently saw the weathered Ferguson. I had never seen that tartan before. I really like it and the idea of the box pleated kilt in that tartan. Thanks for sharing the pictures, Way2fractious.

Cheers,

[Schultz]

I'm lining the 4 yard box pleated kilt in the MacDougall tartan (from F&K) and I must say that it's incredibly comfortable, weight wise, and it hangs very well. My only gripe with it is that I apparently grew some hips in between measuring and sewing, as the top apron is just a wee too small and the left apron edge opens out a bit too much, showing off the deep pleat more than I'd like. All I've got to to is fix that and I'm really pleased with these 4-yard box pleated contraptions.

My wife loves the pleats more than knife-pleats, too.

I'm seriously considering making my X-Marks tartan a box-pleated kilt, as I haven't started pleating yet. I could easily make two (although I don't know what good that will do me, having two of the same tartan).