Scottish Swords

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

"Broadsword" is a modern term that does not refer to any particular sword or style of sword.

Actually, it refers to a wide blade sharpened on both sides. A single edged blade would be called a backsword, indicating that the "back" of the blade was not sharp.

In the Renaissance, many terms (like “Medieval” and “dark age”) were used to describe events and items in the past. Its my understanding that “Claymore” was retroactively used to describe a wider range of swords in Scottish history but should only refer to the basket-hilt style.

Historically speaking "claymore" just means "big sword" and could refer to a basket hilt sword as readily as a hand and a half (or bastard) sword or a full two hander approaching five feet (or more) in length.

Now on to the problem I have with the idea of William Wallace lugging around a massive sword; In the middle ages, two edged swords were either "swords" used with one hand and a shield, or "long swords" which were used with two hands. Long Swords were called different names like "great swords" "war swords" or "bastard swords" depending on length and use. Later in the Renaissance even larger swords, called "two-handed swords," were used. These terms are not set in stone and there are some subcategories of swords that make things more confusing, like “arming sword” “riding sword” and others.

So what sword did Wallace have? Longer swords were around before 1305, the year Wallace died, but I doubt he would have used one. The reason for this is simple, a (one-hand) sword is used with a shield and maille, while longer swords were used plate and no shield. Plate was not common before 1305 and longer swords were not common either.

I believe it was at the battle of Stirling Bridge that Scots, armed with two-handed long swords, took the legs off the horses of English knights.

That said, Wallace was a knight, and would have been armed with pretty much the same sort of arms and armour used by any other knight of that period, not withstanding Mr. Gibson's kilted and woad-covered portrayal of the man.

The chance Wallace would have plate and a long sword or, long sword and no plate and plenty of guts to go without a shield are low. Don’t forget that a long sword requires new techniques to attack and defend and training to use it effectively. All the facts I have used here are from various books I’ve collected on swords and my own research I did years ago in collage. If you disagree or have any corrections please feel free to post them.

I agree that changes in the tactics of warfare brought about changes in the weaponry (and the training needed to effectively use it) and contributed to the evolution of the sword in Scotland.

Welcome to X Marks the Scot...

[Dave K]

Thanks MacMillan, its been along time since I've written about something and I realize now why I should always reread and edit my comments more carefully.

I should have given a better explanation of "broadsword" than "a modern term that does not refer to any particular sword or style of sword." What I meant to say was I have not seen that term used in medieval writing about the swords of the time. I believe the term came about later, once narrower swords became common.

As for the battle of Stirling Bridge, I must say I've never read that longer swords were used. Unfortunately I did more research into Robert the Bruce than William Wallace in school so I could be wrong.

Once again, Thanks.

[Dave K]

Dave,


Second, just FYI, this thread is well over 2 years old
Enjoy the forum

Cheers

Jamie

Opps. My face is RED now. Something about the way I open The forum reverses the topics. I'll be more careful next time.

[gilmore]

... (There is also the word tuca which refers to a clerics small sword.)...

Tell us more, please. What did it look like? How small was it? Larger than a modern highland dress dirk?

I Googled tuca and came across tuck, a longer or usual sized sword with no edges but a sharp point, related to the rapier. Was the tuca similar to this?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Tell us more, please. What did it look like? How small was it? Larger than a modern highland dress dirk?

I Googled tuca and came across tuck, a longer or usual sized sword with no edges but a sharp point, related to the rapier. Was the tuca similar to this?

Actually, I meant to type "tuck" not "tuca", but the type of Scottish sword in question would be different than the "tuck" or estoc" referred to on Google-- that sword had a long, stiff blade and was designed for piercing plate armour. It was a thrusting weapon, through and through.

The Scottish tuck was different in its intended use and construction. I believe the name (as applied in Scotland) may come from the Scots verb "tuck" meaning to shorten. That being the case, then it would refer to something longer than a dirk, but shorter than a sword, in all likelihood made from a discarded sword blade. If that is so, I would venture the opinion that the blade length might have been something in excess of 24 inches, but probably not more than about 30 inches.

A true cut and thrust weapon, it would have been the "pillow sword" of all classes of society, male and female alike. It also would have been the "short sword" carried by foot soldiers and used against dismounted knights, and in melees with other massed infantry formations. The tuck would have been blacksmith made, so the shape was probably of the simple cruciform pattern, although it could have had some sort of rudimentary "knuckle bow" as seen on examples of some cultellus and later falchions (unlike the falchion favoured by archers the blade of the tuck would have been straight and double edged as opposed to curved with a single edge).

I seem to recall a conversation with Earlshall twenty plus years ago, in which he opined that few tucks had survived as they were probably recycled into dirks, or discarded and used as farm implements, etc. as the blades wore out.

Hope that answers your questions.

[gilmore]

You may have been on the right track originally.

"Ireland, like modern Central Africa, would receive all her civilised weapons from her neighbours. The Picts of Scotland would transmit a knowledge of iron-working and of the Sword to the Scotti or Picts of the north-east of Hibernia. This is made evident by the names of the articles. CLAJDEAM or CLAJDJM, the Welsh kledyv, is simply gladius; and TUCA is ‘tuck,’ or a clerk’s Sword."---http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/Book_of_the_Sword.htm

[thanmuwa]

You may have been on the right track originally.

"Ireland, like modern Central Africa, would receive all her civilised weapons from her neighbours. The Picts of Scotland would transmit a knowledge of iron-working and of the Sword to the Scotti or Picts of the north-east of Hibernia. This is made evident by the names of the articles. CLAJDEAM or CLAJDJM, the Welsh kledyv, is simply gladius; and TUCA is ‘tuck,’ or a clerk’s Sword."---http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/Book_of_the_Sword.htm

That guy is... joyfully free from the restrictions of logic. The Irish word Claiomh (sword) has much closer etymological links with the older Gaulish word (which he mentions higher in the same article!) "Claidab". Many examples of Bronze swords and knives (made with copper from Irish mines) have been found in Ireland, so knowledge of the sword predates the iron age. I was diving with a guy in the Shannon once when he found a perfect example of a bronze dagger. It was cool.

Aside: I went to that website out of interest.... Wow, truly nasty. Heavy pinch of salt advised. The paragraph previous to the one you quoted is....

"The modern Irish, who in historical falsification certainly rival, if they do not excel, the Hindús, claim for their ancestry an exalted grade of culture. They found their pretensions upon illuminated manuscripts and similar works of high art; but it is far easier to account for these triumphs as the exceptional labours of students who wandered to the classic regions about the Mediterranean. If ancient Ireland ever was anything but savage, where, let us ask, are the ruins that show any sign of civilisation? A people of artists does not pig in wooden shanties, surrounded by a rude vallum of earth-work. "

For those who don't know enough about Ireland to realise that this is purely viciousness, the illuminated manuscripts s/he refers to, such as the book of Kells etc., were often found in or near ruins like Clonmacnoise and (many) others. Ireland also has what is reputed to be the oldest engineered building in the world in Newgrange and a continuum of ruins eg Dun Aonghus exist between these two extremes of age. But I guess actual evidence just stands in the way of this guy's preconceptions...

[The Barry]

Wow, this thread is amazing! Keep it up!

[xena]

For those who don't know enough about Ireland to realise that this is purely viciousness, the illuminated manuscripts s/he refers to, such as the book of Kells etc., were often found in or near ruins like Clonmacnoise and (many) others. Ireland also has what is reputed to be the oldest engineered building in the world in Newgrange and a continuum of ruins eg Dun Aonghus exist between these two extremes of age. But I guess actual evidence just stands in the way of this guy's preconceptions...

Plus, different climates account for different ruins surviving. In dry deserts, like Egypt, lots of stuff will last for a very long time. In temperate regions with high wind and rain activity... not so much.

Archaeology is a science that is far from simple, and has a remarkable number of factors, not all of which are obvious to the average person.

That, however, doesn't stop people from pontificating with silly ideas, though.

[Weasel Mender]

Opps. My face is RED now. Something about the way I open The forum reverses the topics. I'll be more careful next time.

No need for a red face quite often revisiting an old thread gives us new insight and information on an intresting topic

Weasel