All a frazzle

**macwilkin** · 9th January 07, 05:40 AM

Whilst I am probably the most conservative bluff old traditionalist around here (

), far be it from me to tell someone they're "wrong" about something...I will be honest & truthful when asked my opinion...but I would never dare to send someone an PM like this person has..."We're all Jock Tamson's Bairns", after all.

That being said, I think MacWage & others are correct in pointing out the difference between a clan society and a clan. In the US, there are plenty of "fun" organizations like the MacBubbas, the MacFritzers, etc. who are having fun with Scottish heritage and that's great. Here we are free to start whatever group we choose (as long as it does not threaten the sovereignty of the Republic), so why shouldn't kiltedcossack start his own "clan"? He won't get "official recognition" from the Lord Lyon, but somehow I have a feeling that's not what's he's after here.

We're talking about two entirely different creatures.

Regards,

Todd

**MacWage** · 9th January 07, 06:00 AM

On a side note, MacBubba is ACTUALLY recognized as an "official" clan society by Lord Lyon (who I THINK is a member himself, I know one of the two official hearaldy artist is). It is NOT an official clan however, because part of the Scottish legal definition would require the geneolgical connection between the "clan" and a man name Bubba or MacBubba who lived in Scotland, yada, yada, yada.

As you can tell, I have NO problem with a "non-Scottish" kilted clan.
I have also toyed with the idea of a Carolina "clan" named MacArolin
Clan tartan-> Carolina
Crest-> coiled snake (on yellow when in color) with the slogan "Calca Non Meum" (Tread not upon me)
(Obviously based on the American Revolution flag that was designed in South Carolina and heavly used during the southern campaign. Ot was also used elsewhere, but is often associated with South Carolina particularly and the Carolinas in general. It was also the ensign of the commander of the Revolutionary Navy)

From the Carolina colony,

**macwilkin** · 9th January 07, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by MacWage

On a side note, MacBubba is ACTUALLY recognized as an "official" clan society by Lord Lyon (who I THINK is a member himself, I know one of the two official hearaldy artist is). It is NOT an official clan however, because part of the Scottish legal definition would require the geneolgical connection between the "clan" and a man name Bubba or MacBubba who lived in Scotland, yada, yada, yada.

As you can tell, I have NO problem with a "non-Scottish" kilted clan.
I have also toyed with the idea of a Carolina "clan" named MacArolin
Clan tartan-> Carolina
Crest-> coiled snake (on yellow when in color) with the slogan "Calca Non Meum" (Tread not upon me)
(Obviously based on the American Revolution flag that was designed in South Carolina and heavly used during the southern campaign. Ot was also used elsewhere, but is often associated with South Carolina particularly and the Carolinas in general. It was also the ensign of the commander of the Revolutionary Navy)

From the Carolina colony,

Interesting...I was not aware that Lyon was a member of Clan MacBubba, but that's great if he is!

I'm all for it.

And I would be the first to sign up for the Clan MacArolin -- I like the symbolism! Let me know! :mrgreen:

T.

**MacWage** · 9th January 07, 06:29 AM

From:
http://www.gadsden.info/Christopher.html

Christopher Gadsden was an American patriot if ever there was one. He led Sons of Liberty in South Carolina starting in 1765, and was later made a colonel in the Continental Army. In 1775 he was in Philadelphia representing his home state in the Continental Congress. He was also one of three members of the Marine Committee who decided to outfit and man the Alfred and its sister ships.

Larger context:
Christopher Gadsden & Esek Hopkins

Although Benjamin Franklin helped create the American rattlesnake symbol, his name isn't generally attached to the rattlesnake flag. The yellow "don't tread on me" standard is usually called a Gadsden flag, for Colonel Christopher Gadsden, or less commonly, a Hopkins flag, for Commodore Esek Hopkins.

These two individuals were mulling about Philadelphia at the same time, making important contributions to American history and the history of the rattlesnake flag.

Christopher Gadsden was an American patriot if ever there was one. He led Sons of Liberty in South Carolina starting in 1765, and was later made a colonel in the Continental Army. In 1775 he was in Philadelphia representing his home state in the Continental Congress. He was also one of three members of the Marine Committee who decided to outfit and man the Alfred and its sister ships.

Commodore Hopkins, portrait by C. Corbutt, 1776. Click here for a larger image. The Don't Tread on Me flag in this image appears to be a First Navy Jack. Library of Congress, Prints and Photographs Division.

Gadsden and Congress chose a Rhode Island man, Esek Hopkins, as the commander-in-chief of the Navy. The flag that Hopkins used as his personal standard on the Alfred is the one we would now recognize. It's likely that John Paul Jones, as the first lieutenant on the Alfred, ran it up the gaff.

It's generally accepted that Hopkins' flag was presented to him by Christopher Gadsden, who felt it was especially important for the commodore to have a distinctive personal standard. Gadsden also presented a copy of this flag to his state legislature in Charleston. This is recorded in the South Carolina congressional journals:

"Col. Gadsden presented to the Congress an elegant standard, such as is to be used by the commander in chief of the American navy; being a yellow field, with a lively representation of a rattle-snake in the middle, in the attitude of going to strike, and these words underneath, "Don't Tread on Me!"

That last part is one of the reasons some South Carolinaians consider the Gasden yellow flag as the first state flag.

Now, back to topic:

KiltedCossak,
let it roll as so much water off your back. EVERYWHERE there are arrogant clueless people. Even in my OWN area, many/most of the residents are of Scot descent, but a surprising large number don't even seem to know what a kilt even is!