St. Patrick's day has been moved

[Warhoover]

Thank you Matt and Ozman1944 for your correction of Graham.

One thing I have really started to despise is the attitude here in the US ( I can't speak for Ireland or the rest of the world as I have not experienced St Patrick's Feast in other countries), is how many people think it is a reason to go drink, get pished and act very rudely!

I have no problem having a few pints in the honor of St Patrick, but come on! My wife and I have been to Savannah many times for the Greening of The Fountains and the St Patrick's celebration, but no more. She and several other women were groped as we tried to get into a restaurant last year, thankfully one of Savannah's Finest was right there and rounded up the miscreants before it really got ugly. My wife and I like to have fun and enjoy ourselves just as much as anyone, but, were just appalled at the extreme many take with it. Sure have a few pints enjoy the day and have fun, but why do many make total asses of themselves? Sure maybe one or two would do this but the numbers are increasing. It's not a day for Hedonism and debauchery for goodness sakes.
What is really alarming is that there are some that are trying to turn St Andrew's Day into the same thing!

[Ozman1944]

Yes Warhoover. I've lived in the US for 30 years now so know what you mean.
In Australia, there was a simultaneous Catholic Mass, Anglican & Presbyterian services. Then Assembling at the Catholic Cathedral began an "Orange & Green" parade together (Catholics & Protestants) Pipers, drummers, flutes etc. Various Irish flavorded charity groups, kids etc. Led by a banner (with orange & Green ribbons) depicting St. Patrick in his Bishop's finery. At the end of the parade rode together in an open car. the Two Bishops & the Moderator of the three Churches.
Then a BBQ/Irish Faire at the park . Some drinking, but moderate, as it was a family day. Lots of dancing, games etc. We usually held it on the nearest Saturday to the 17th.
Here they swill down the booze & drunkenly confess on the six O'clock news that they don't have a clue who St. Patrick is - then everyone grins drunkenly & cheers!!! Oi Veh! Not very uplifting. Watch out, Sts, Andrew & David will be next.

[Archangel]

I don't know how it rates in the States but I read that in Canada, St. Patrick's on a Friday or Saturday, is the peak event of the year for bars.

I've found that if you go to wilder, primal events you're safer. Seems like Dropkick Murphy and Mudmen events have more security and bigger fans. They seem to avoid people who don't want to be in the mix. It seems to intimidate the kind of people that would behave the way described in the earlier post.

It's just a difference I've noted and it's become a practice to look for the rowdier event.

I went to one event where an elderly couple did a couple of slow waltz type dances in the midst of the primal war dance going on all around them. Security stood right there but realized that the high kickers were watching out for the couple too. Eventually, the extra security moved away.

[fluter]

In Australia, there was a simultaneous Catholic Mass, Anglican & Presbyterian services. Then Assembling at the Catholic Cathedral began an "Orange & Green" parade together

Now that is cool.

...Watch out, Sts, Andrew & David will be next.

Maybe an ecumenical pre-emptive strike is in order.

[Graham]

Matt, a good read on the topic is "The Celtic Way of Evangelism" by George G Hunter. One of several works on the topic.
In the book he shows the theological origins and influences of the early celtic evangelists including Patrick, Columba and Aidan. He shows how the "celtic distinctives" (beliefs that a very independent celtic church held) differed from the established church of the East and how they were a threat and finally beaten and absorbed into the larger church.

After reading this my statement about Patrick may not seem so radical.
We all know how history has a way of being rewritten to suit the dogma of the day.

Rather than, as you say Matt, discuss it here, get the book and / or email me if you want to look at it further.
It's an issue that has consumed me for some time and is really interesting since it strikes at the very heart of the celtic revival that we all are passionate about in some way or another.

....but I still like guinness

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Graham,

I think if we can keep the topic on history rather than theology we should be ok here.

I haven't read that particular book, but I do have to warn that a lot of books written about "Celtic spirituality" or "Celtic religion" (even the ones with a Christian persepctive) tend to be rather historically dubious. I'm saying this as an historian, not as someone affiliated with a particular religion.

If you are interested in Patrick's spirituality, I'd suggest reading his own writings, such as his Confessions! The beauty of it is that you can even read it free, on line and it's not that long!
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/patrick/confession.toc.html

In paragraph 51, for instance, he speaks of administering sacraments of baptism, confirmation, and holy orders. Earlier in the text he speaks of a heirarchy of holy orders (deacons, priests, bishops), speaking of when he became a deacon, then later a bishop. In the first paragraph of the text he tells us his father was a deacon and his grandfather a priest! A heirarchical, sacramantal Church, is evident here.

His letter to the Soldiers of Coroticus is also available on line, and a short read:
http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/p02.html

In it he also speaks of himself as a bishop. He speaks of his "fellow citizens of the holy Romans." (St. Patrick himself wrote in Latin). Again, a heirarchical structure is evident in his writings, as he talks of priests administering sacraments.

Remember, these are the only two writings of Patrick's that survive and make up the bulk of our primary evidence about him. However, it's not all that we know. We also know, for instance, that he recieved much of his Christian education from St. Germain, who was the (Roman Catholic) Bishop of Auxerre in Gaul. (St. Germain was invited to come to Britain to help defend the Catholic faith against the Pelagian heresy, and it is said that Patrick may have traveled with him on this journey). It is most likley Germain who ordained Patrick to the priesthood.

According to a ninth century account of Germain's life, it was Germain who reccomended Patrick to the pope for the mission to Ireland, after Palladius failed in that same mission. The Pope is said in that account to have given Patrick a number of holy relics to take with him on his mission.

Patrick was ordained to the episcopacy by St. Maximus, Bishop of Turin, who himself was a great theological writer. Many of his writings also survive to us and his Catholic faith is quite evident in them.

In short, according to the historical evidence available, Patrick was a Catholic, who learned the faith from Catholics, and was ordained by Catholics into the service of the Catholic Church.

Trying to argue that Patrick wasn't Catholic is about like trying to argue that he never went into Ireland! The historical evidence for both is about as strong.

Again, I'm trying to prove a point here for the sake of historical accuracy. I'm not trying to make any religious point at all.

[Mike1]

We're discussing religious history, but the comments being made are not making any religious points? I hear what you're trying to sell, but I'm not buying. Please, please, please, everyone take the time to read the forum rules, OK?

No Religious or Political Threads
Threads concerning Religion are subject to deletion with out notice. There are other forums to discuss religion so please take those posts elsewhere. This rule is set forth to keep the peace, not to invoke an absence of Religion.

If any of you care to continue this conversation, please move it to the Private Messaging system or to e-mail.