Do the jacket and the waistcoat have to match?

[English Bloke]

He is wearing a military uniform, not civilian attire.

He's not wearing a Uniform he's wearing Mess Dress which is civvies. All be it highly regulated civvies where mistakes in the wearing of can cost many nights of extra duty, it's still civvies.

[JSFMACLJR]

He's not wearing a Uniform he's wearing Mess Dress which is civvies. All be it highly regulated civvies where mistakes in the wearing of can cost many nights of extra duty, it's still civvies.

How can mess dress for an officer of the Atholl Highlanders not be considered a uniform?

[macwilkin]

He's not wearing a Uniform he's wearing Mess Dress which is civvies. All be it highly regulated civvies where mistakes in the wearing of can cost many nights of extra duty, it's still civvies.

I'd like to see some documentation for this statement. Mess Dress is the military equivalent of formal attire, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's mufti.

Regards,

Todd

[The Barry]

Wow, before I read this thread, I would have just defaulted by saying "of course they should match"..

Now, I'm thinking that, like Riverkilt, I might have me some fun by trying some things out!!

[Phil]

Non-matching waistcoats are perfectly acceptable - this is levee dress,



Also here is me in a tartan waistcoat

[JSFMACLJR]

He's not wearing a Uniform he's wearing Mess Dress which is civvies. All be it highly regulated civvies where mistakes in the wearing of can cost many nights of extra duty, it's still civvies.

Sorry to bring this back up, but I really am curious about this.

Regards,
Sandford

[macwilkin]

Sorry to bring this back up, but I really am curious about this.

Regards,
Sandford

I am as well, Sandford.

T.

[xena]

I think the Mess Kit is "uniform/highly regulated civvies" debate is a grey area concept. Mess Kit is kind of both all at the same time.

Mess Kit is not provided by the military. One has to purchase one's own. Therefore, it's civvies. It is, however, an order of dress in the dress regulations with specifics as to how it's worn, therefore it's a uniform. Confused? Well, you should be. As I said, it's kind of both.

It's in the military dress regulations as a uniform, but they are purchased from various private tailors or uniform suppliers, so there can be a bit of surprising amount of acceptable variation in material, cut, workmanship, colour, etc. This can be seen sometimes when people who are theoretically wearing the same mess kit are seen side by side. Some red serge are more red than others. Some "old gold" embroidery will be very different from someone else's. This can be sometime's very readily apparent if you catch a young Second Lieutenant beside a General. If the 2Lt tried to save a few quid on his mandatory purchase of Mess Kit, he could potentially look quite poor compared to the General who, by this point in his life, has no financial worries. But, as long as he's in the required "pattern", he's okay and it's doubtful the Adjutant will have any issues with him - at least with regards to dress. What exactly a subaltern is doing hovering around a General Officer for in the first place is another issue!

Does that help?

[JSFMACLJR]

Your post really doesn't clear up the erroneous fact that mess dress is "civvies." As you have stated, officers purchase their own uniforms ( maybe not so common today ). Because they are made by a civilian tailor, though, does not make them "civilian", if you know what I mean. My London tailor, Meyer & Mortimer, happen to specialise in Highland dress, and they also make a great deal of uniforms for officers, mess dress included. What tailors follow are the sealed patterns from the MoD or the relevant department. Of course if a subaltern's pockets were deeper than a field officer, he just may have a better tailored uniform!

Just because one has to purchase one's uniform (mess dress included) the fact remains that the chap is still wearing a uniform, and not mufti!

Kind regards,
Sandford MacLean

[macwilkin]

Your post really doesn't clear up the erroneous fact that mess dress is "civvies." As you have stated, officers purchase their own uniforms ( maybe not so common today ). Because they are made by a civilian tailor, though, does not make them "civilian", if you know what I mean. My London tailor, Meyer & Mortimer, happen to specialise in Highland dress, and they also make a great deal of uniforms for officers, mess dress included. What tailors follow are the sealed patterns from the MoD or the relevant department. Of course if a subaltern's pockets were deeper than a field officer, he just may have a better tailored uniform!

Just because one has to purchase one's uniform (mess dress included) the fact remains that the chap is still wearing a uniform, and not mufti!

Kind regards,
Sandford MacLean

From a military historian's POV, I would tend to agree with Sanford. Traditionally officers have paid for their uniforms, even in the US Army. Private purchase items abounded in the Civil War, even among other ranks, even weapons and kit. Theodore Roosevelt, for example, had his uniform for the "Rough Riders" tailored at Brooks Brothers, who also made a number of regimental colours during the Civil War.

Regards,

Todd