The Title of "Master Kiltmaker"

**Ayin McFye** · 31st March 09, 01:09 PM

I think that just because someone masters a trade or skill doesn't mean they no longer use it on a very regular basis, possibilly even for a living.

I'm going to use a different analogy.

In Medieval times, there were knights, however one did not start as a knight. One had to also go through a period of learning, servitude, and so on. Early on in their life they served as pages, then eventually squired to an existing knight, and eventually became a knight or Master in their field, usually because all the other knights and/or king agreed they were worthy, and had been recognized.

Now a knight didn't stop fighting or stop living as a knight, just because they reached the rank of knight. They had a whole new set of jobs to perform after they'd be knighted. Everything from defend the kingdom, to taking on squires and teaching them the way of the knight.

I do agree with your assessment that a master much teach and pass on what they know, however because they are masters, they have the ability to do both teach and perform their skill on a regular basis.

I'm not saying that your wrong, I'm just respectfully disagreeing. You are more of an authority on the subject of kilts than I am.

**O'Callaghan** · 31st March 09, 01:32 PM

In the UK in general, traditional 7 year apprenticeships were supplanted by the CGLI Craft qualifications, generally taking four years of part time college one day a week during the academic year while working at their trade the other four days of the week, each year numbered C1 to C4 in ascending order and getting a separate certificate for each year, where a C4 is usually entitled to call themself a Master Plumber or Master (whatever). I don't think there's a C4 in kiltmaking, though.

(ETA: But there probably is a C4 in Tailoring. I'd be very surprised if there isn't, in fact)

Vocational Qualifications are another and more recent scheme that I know less about. I would guess that if someone has one of those in kiltmaking they ought to be able to call themself a Master Kiltmaker, though.

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 31st March 09, 01:30 PM

I would agree with Ayin-- Masters practice their craft, and help their apprentices learn the "craft" of what they do. Paul Revere was a master silversmith; he didn't run a school in Boston teaching bowl making. The same with Henry Nock. He was a master gun maker, not someone running a school for gunsmiths.

Rather than write to the Lord Lyon or the College of Arms about this fellow's risible attempt at tradesman's arms, I would think that a letter to the Tailor's Guild in London, asking if this fellow is a member of the guild or in some way qualified to present himself to potential customers as a master tailor or master kilt maker, would be more in order. If one could be bothered to ask at all.

**macwilkin** · 31st March 09, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

I would agree with Ayin-- Masters practice their craft, and help their apprentices learn the "craft" of what they do. Paul Revere was a master silversmith; he didn't run a school in Boston teaching bowl making. The same with Henry Nock. He was a master gun maker, not someone running a school for gunsmiths.

Rather than write to the Lord Lyon or the College of Arms about this fellow's risible attempt at tradesman's arms, I would think that a letter to the Tailor's Guild in London, asking if this fellow is a member of the guild or in some way qualified to present himself to potential customers as a master tailor or master kilt maker, would be more in order. If one could be bothered to ask at all.

The STA should be notified, though, since he is claiming his status comes from them.

T.

**slohairt** · 31st March 09, 01:38 PM

Sure, I'll notify them.

**slohairt** · 31st March 09, 01:54 PM

Anyhow, I look over the site again, and couldn't find anything that stated he received his title from the STA.

As for his tartan ranges, aside from his 'special weaves', it would appear that he exclusively uses Marton Mills' fabric. There's nothing wrong with that, but to charge over £699 for a kilt made from the most inexpensive tartan there is, well...

He also sells the fabric, but everyone should realise that it marked up in excess of 300%.

**The Wizard of BC** · 31st March 09, 03:13 PM

I'm not sure if some of the comments following mine were directed at me but I'll answer them anyway.

Please note that I never said that a Master Kiltmaker was a school teacher and nothing else. I never said that a Master Kiltmaker no longer would make Kilts.

I also never made a requirement of the term "Master Kiltmaker" as it applies to the world today.

We no longer live with the Guild system even though there are still guilds.
Today they way of being certified to do something is different and you don't have to apprentice to be an operating Kiltmaker or open a shop or even call your self a Master Kiltmaker.

In fact currently there is no board, organization or school where one can go to earn the title "Master Kiltmaker". Even the Keith School only gives you a piece of paper saying "Traditional Handcraft Kilt Manufacturer".

So, please, read my words and don't read into them. I was simply explaining how things used to be in what I thought was a simple and understandable manner.

And as a side note... Paul Revere was a master silversmith because he did run a school. It was his shop, he took in apprentice craftsman and no matter who actually did the work it carried his name. And he was certified by the Silversmiths Guild to do so.
No, he did not just teach a classroom, sit-down school but those who worked for him were learning their craft from him.
That is what I was trying to get across.

Today you don't go through the whole apprentice, journeyman, master process for each and every trade. For example to become a Master Locksmith you simply have to go to a school that awards that certificate.
Today's system is different.

So, today if someone wishes to buy and rip apart a Utilikilt, buy a machine, some fabric and call themselves a Master Kiltmaker, there is no one to stop them. Remember, there are no such things as Kilt Kops. Just people who get prickley at something someone else says.

**Bugbear** · 31st March 09, 01:31 PM

I very much wonder about this difference between "tailored" kilts and kilts made in the "old traditional ways." What are some spacifics to look for in the construction of the kilt?

**Riverkilt** · 31st March 09, 02:24 PM

If I recall the bit about the title being from the STA and him being one of only 26 was from an interview.

His About Us page on the website says,

"Upon leaving the service he decided to take on the challenge of making a difference in the kilt making world and now, eight years on, he is the youngest master kilt maker of which there are only 26"

But he doesn't mention STA other than to say he's a member.

**beloitpiper** · 31st March 09, 02:37 PM

A HA! I found a few tidbits hidden in the "About" section, which you can find at the bottom of the homepage.

(The bolded emphasis is mine)

Upon leaving the service he decided to take on the challenge of making a difference in the kilt making world and now, eight years on, he is the youngest master kilt maker of which there are only 26....He was awarded the title of military Master Kilt Maker in 2007....We have also been busy trying to set up the first London Kilt Making Guild to teach kilt making to students.....The Master Kilt Maker is one of only 26 master kilt makers in the world. Based at the enterprise units at Bernie Grant Arts Centre, Thomas has a growing business with an impressive portfolio of clients. He has helped to set up the London kilt making guild in association with the London School of Fashion and his product is now dominating the London market.

I'm pretty sure he is saying that he is a MILITARY master kilt maker. Is this a real title in the military, or is he making that up?