colors & symbolism: any connection?

[Bugbear]

Tartan was invented before the advent of color (sometime in the 1950's), so I imagine variant shades of gray would have been the easiest to find. ...

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[Jock Scot]

Tartan was invented before the advent of color (sometime in the 1950's), so I imagine variant shades of gray would have been the easiest to find.

I think red would have been an easy color to make.

http://www.pioneerthinking.com/naturaldyes.html

1950's?????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Paul Henry]

to George Black... red is very unlikely to have been the easiest colour to produce, infact there are stories that suggest that the use of red was to show wealth/status etc and that would have been because of the expense of the dye stuff. Most of the early tartans are fairly earthy colours,and then came blues/greens and darks.
Even today red colours are usually the ones that fade first

[Bugbear]

I know that color photographs and films were possible in the early 1940s, but rare. That wonderful use of the switch from black and white to color in "The Wizard of Oz" sums it all up, though.

My father used to repair and colorize black and white photographs, and I was never impressed with the results. Perhaps now in the computer age the results are much better; I wouldn't know.

[starbkjrus]

I know that color photographs and films were possible in the early 1940s, but rare. That wonderful use of the switch from black and white to color in "The Wizard of Oz" sums it all up, though.

My father used to repair and colorize black and white photographs, and I was never impressed with the results. Perhaps now in the computer age the results are much better; I wouldn't know.

Things are greatly improved now Ted although when it comes to colorizing classic movies there are two schools of though 180 degrees apart. For instance one of the studios once talked of (I don't think they ever actually did it) colorizing the first part of The Wizard of Oz. You could hear the shouts of don't you dare from one end of the country to the other.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Three Canadian Tartans (Maple Leaf, Ensign of Ontario and Essex Country) all have symbolisms listed for the tartan's colors.

[Rob Wright]

At the same time we have the Douglas Grey which dates from at least 1842 which is the Douglas pattern but black and grey "colors" and Douglas is from the gaelic Dhub: black & glas:grey/water which could be interpreted that the black and grey might, I stress might, have been taken from the meanings of the words that make up the name. I personally doubt it but it is interesting that the colors of the Douglas grey match the meaning of the words that make up the name.

Rob

[The Barry]

Although most tartans have no symbolism to their color scheme, this is not always the case.

Maybe I will be corrected here, but the story that I've heard about the black Douglas tartan does have meaning in the tartan's colors. Something along the lines that the name, Douglas, was derived from the name of the land, which was named for the black (dubh) water (glas) in the land. And that's why the original tartan is done in black.

[Rob Wright]

Although most tartans have no symbolism to their color scheme, this is not always the case.

Maybe I will be corrected here, but the story that I've heard about the black Douglas tartan does have meaning in the tartan's colors. Something along the lines that the name, Douglas, was derived from the name of the land, which was named for the black (dubh) water (glas) in the land. And that's why the original tartan is done in black.

Just checked, the Scottish Register of Tartans lists the Black Douglas from 1920 and the Douglas (4083) from 1819 yet in the registration notes:

Registration notes: This is the accepted Douglas Clan/Family tartan. It first appeared in Wilson's 1819 list as no.184 and the name 'Douglas' was certainly attached to it by 1880 when it appeared in Clans Originaux as Douglas Hunting. The blue guards on the black started out life as being azure but over the decades became darker and darker. This is a variation of Black Douglas (#1029, original Scottish Tartans Authority reference) with white instead of red. Lochcarron swatch. This is the tartan worn by the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). In the original tartan, the green and blue are so dark that it is almost impossible to see the lines crossing the greens. The earliest known date from a list compiled by D.C. Stewart from Wilsons of Bannockburn letters was 1826.

here it states the Douglas is a variation of Black Douglas replacing red with white. Interesting.

Rob

[Bugbear]

Darn right you better not colorize the beginning and end of "The Wizard of Oz!!!"

I don't know anything about the rest.

[BroosterB1]

It looks like we're all in agreement here, so we'll move on to the next question:
What color(s) of dye would have been easiest/cheapest to produce in 18th century Scotland? My guess is green, brown and pale yellow, with red and true blue being most difficult/most expensive.
Any dyers here?

Actually, the earthy shades of tone are fairly easy to achieve, yellow, green, blue, brown, even some shades of black; red has always been a difficult color to dye, and of course purple (one of the reasons it's considered a "Royal" color).

This changed quite a bit with the introduction of Annalen dyes in the mid 19Th century, and colors once reserved for special situations due to their cost, became very popular.

The biggest problem with both older and newer dying is getting the color to fast or stay. This process is one of using another chemical or chemicals to fix the color to the fibers of the cloth. Certain type of cloth mordant (fix) easier than others, wool once cleaned is one that picks up color well, cotton on the other hand, until the introduction of the Madras process, was difficult to fix and remain color fast.

Also, natural colors are not necessarily the colors you would think. One example is sedge. A common green, but when boiled the color comes out a tawny yellow. The green is a result of re-boiling in cast iron, the iron ions fix to the sedge on the atomic scale and turn the cloth (or yard) into the wonderful green we love, also fasting it to the bonds that incorporate it into the cloth. A wee bit of salt and once the fabric or yarn has dried, your dye will last for decades.