Buttons on a Doublet

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Hi JSFMACLJR,

I recognise Rafal Heydel-Mankoo, but who is that with him? Rafal seems to have disappeared off the face of the world - he doesn't answer his emails or update his blog and most of his memberships seem to have lapsed. How long ago was this picture taken?

Regards

Chas

As Sandy has pointed out that's Rafe with the late David Lumsden of Cushnie. I'm regularly in touch with Rafe, who lives in London. The photo, by the way, was taken in the drawing room at Hamilton House, in Prestonpans, a place where I passed many, many, a delightful hour with Cushnie.

[Chas]

Hi Sandford,

I wonder if this is a class / dancing thing. It strikes me that different classes of person would have different levels of dress for 'best'. It would only be the upper classes of society who would have PCs and Doublets in their wardrobes and who would have attended the ultra-formal events.

Now, I know nothing about Scottish Country Dancing, but before, say 1970, I would think that it would have been confined mainly to Scotland. Would it have been possible for PCs and Doublets to have evolved to accommodate a different style of dancing and/or social event? If not dancing, then has there been a change in another formal social activity since 1860?

I don't know if this makes any sense at all and maybe the change was just a normal progression/evolution in the jacket.

Regards

Chas

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The low cut, four button waistcoat is an interesting idea. I'm guessing that the buttons are basically closer and the cut of the waistcoat is, for the most part, the same as a three button waistcoat?

Hi Ted!
The fourth button on a four button waistcoat goes above the other three, which raises the closure about an inch. Usuall, although not always, the wasitcoat has a "scooped" front. Instead of being "V" shaped, it is "U" shaped. Hope that answers your question...
Scott

[Bugbear]

Hi Ted!
The fourth button on a four button waistcoat goes above the other three, which raises the closure about an inch. Usuall, although not always, the wasitcoat has a "scooped" front. Instead of being "V" shaped, it is "U" shaped. Hope that answers your question...
Scott

Ah! I have seen that style of waistcoat. I like the look of the scooped front, too. Thanks.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Hi Sandford,

I wonder if this is a class / dancing thing. It strikes me that different classes of person would have different levels of dress for 'best'. It would only be the upper classes of society who would have PCs and Doublets in their wardrobes and who would have attended the ultra-formal events.

Now, I know nothing about Scottish Country Dancing, but before, say 1970, I would think that it would have been confined mainly to Scotland. Would it have been possible for PCs and Doublets to have evolved to accommodate a different style of dancing and/or social event? If not dancing, then has there been a change in another formal social activity since 1860?

I don't know if this makes any sense at all and maybe the change was just a normal progression/evolution in the jacket.

Regards

Chas

I hope you (and Sandford) will excuse me for jumping in here, but the simple explanation for all the buttons is that Highland fashion followed the general trend of mens fashion. It has nothing to do with "social class" or "country dancing".

Dress coats, as we know them, really evolved from the formal jackets worn during the Regency period. Until the very early Victorian period a gentleman's dress coat was double breasted and did button. As dress jackets ceased to be buttoned the arrangement of buttons was altered to reflect this fact.

With the introduction of the "modern" evening dress coat, in late Victorian times, the double row of three buttons made a comeback. This was later carried over to Highland attire with the introduction of the now ubiquitous Prince Charlie coatee.

Because the mass produced PC uses the same bodice as the Standard Doublet, it was easier for clothing factories to treat both garments the same-- no one was apt to complain if their doublet had six front buttons, but customers on Sauchiehall street would howl like banshees if their PCs arrived with only four buttons!

I hope this rather general "overview" has answered your question.

[McMurdo]

Now, I know nothing about Scottish Country Dancing, but before, say 1970, I would think that it would have been confined mainly to Scotland.
Chas

Sorry I just had to step in here, the RSCDS has been in Toronto, Ontario, Canada for over 50 years. SCD has not been confined to Scotland by any means, some of the best dancers I know do not have a drop of Scottish blood, it really has travelled far afield.

[Bugbear]

Doh! Now I'm obsessed with these scooped front, four button waistcoats... I think I would actually prefer that to the V front waistcoat style.

The only problem is that I keep seeing, in my mind, the scoop front waistcoat with the pleated front tuxedo shirt and studs. I don't think that would go well with Highland attire. I guess it would look alright with a plain front, french closure dress shirt...

[Chas]

Sorry I just had to step in here, the RSCDS has been in Toronto, Ontario, Canada for over 50 years. SCD has not been confined to Scotland by any means, some of the best dancers I know do not have a drop of Scottish blood, it really has travelled far afield.

Hi Glen,

I don't doubt that the RSCDS has been functioning in Toronto (and the rest of the world) for over 50 years. My choice of 1970 was purely arbitrary as it was over 100 years after 1860.

The idea I had was that the clothing was changed by the people who wore it. If we are talking about doublets and PCs, then they would have been worn, in the main, by the upper classes. Why was the clothing changed? I put forward the idea that it was the activities that they were doing while wearing the clothing, that dictated the change.

I might very well be wrong here, but I would have thought that the members of the RSCDS in Toronto (or anywhere else in the world) would have come from the middle classes rather than the upper classes. As such their 'dressed up' clothing would then have been an Argyle rather than a PC.

The only activity I could think of that these upper classes could be doing at these very formal events that might require an alteration to their clothing would be dancing. I am sure that none of us have required a PC to eat or drink, so it can't be that.

Have I explained this so anyone can understand it - probably not, as I am not sure that I understand or believe it myself. MoR has put forward a different explanation and he is probably right.

Regards

Chas

[Phil]

There must have been a design change back around the 50's/60's. This illustration of a PC from Stewart Christie's catalogue (same as Sandford's earlier one) has buttons on only one side -

-
whereas the one I have made by them in the early 1970's has the buttons both sides. Also their "Montrose" is single-breasted, more like what other places call a "Kenmore" nowadays -


This is the same one although my figure is hardly as svelte as the illustration -

[Chas]

Hi Phil,

The only difference I can see is that he has a cigarette and you have something infinitely better.

Regards

Chas