Help with Graham Kilts, sporran and silver dress buttons

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

For those interested in 18th/19th century clothing and the changes that took place in construction and who may have been following this thread, here is the latest offering from my knowledgeable period clothing friend:

"Your forum contributor is of course right about many things he has said and indeed at auction in the UK antique/vintage clothing is outrageously underpriced in my opinion. I have to say that he is wrong about his definition of bespoke and hand tailored - these do not mean entirely hand sewn. All of the clothes I make, whether they be modern or historical are hand made, almost everything I do is bespoke, however unless specified by the client almost everything is machine sewn and hand finished. It is true that you can specify a fall front on a paid of breeches or trousers even today and there is an increased likelihood in the future of confusion of date of clothing with the more discerning re-enactor having his or her reproduction clothes hand sewn using authentically produced and dyed cloth. However, most of the black silk worn by these more modern people wearing their bespoke clothing will be dyed with synthetic dyes, your silk breeches are most likely to have been dyed with natural dyestuffs. Something that may possibly not be able to discovered without testing to destruction at least a part of the fabric.

I have had the opportunity to examine very closely (through making alterations) the construction techniques of the modern dress uniform red coats still being worn by the British forces. There is a huge amount of hand work on these garments, however the main seams are machined, why wouldn't they be? Of course 'Bishops, Deans, and Arch-deacons in the Church of England; the Heralds in England, Scotland, and Ireland; any number of Judges and those lawyers who have "taken silk", ie: are Queen's Counselors; liveried servants; etc.' could have their bespoke clothing hand sewn but generally their garments are machine sewn and hand finished - that is part of the definition of bespoke.

I do take offense at the title he has given me of 'theatrical costumer', I do not make costume for theatre. I reproduce, as accurately as possible given budget and material constraints, historical clothing, i.e. clothes designed to be worn in the way clothes used to be worn, not costume for a couple of hours performance and rigorous modern cleaning processes. If I am being accused of jumping to conclusions based on photographs, something which I have been very careful not to do if you read thoroughly the opinions I have given, he, equally, has been very quick to try to debunk any stated opinion with equally little evidence. You do at least have information relating to the estate they have come from and dates that concur. I should get off my soap box now...

Back the the 'velcro' I realised it wasn't the actual product from what you said. You're description of the product makes me think it is made in a similar way to velvet and this is probably the best piece of the breeches to date the garment. You're form contributor has conveniently completely neglected the buttons in his arguments... Even if the breeches were more recently manufactured than the 18th C they would undoubtedly have used modern equivalents for the buttons. Late Victorian covered buttons are constructed very differently from these and the use of bone buttons is also improbable in the 20th C and I feel sure that if made later than the mid 19th C the main seams of the breeches at the very least would probably have been machine sewn. I'm slipping back onto the soap box and I have commissions of bespoke livery coats for 15th C re-enactors to do, not to mention some corsets and an 18th C style mantua and petticoat. I always try to back up my information with primary sources wherever possible... (something theatrical costumers do not generally do!)."

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Rather than rebut the comments made by your "expert costumer" paragraph by paragraph, I will merely point out that this is a forum about kilts-- and as such I really don't give two buttons for his/her opinions on the construction of 18th century breeches versus those made in the 19th or 20th centuries, as muddled as those opinions are. Suffice it to say that broadly speaking I think your expert is wrong, and protests far too much to present a convincing case.

As to the value assigned to the breeches, I am of the opinion that even with substantial, and I mean substantial, not hearsay provenance, the ebay asking price of GBP2,900 seems absurd, even if your expert costumer thinks it is a snip. You maintain that these breeches were the property of Thomas Graham, later raised to the peerage as the first (and I believe only) Baron Lynedoch. Perhaps if these were the breeches he wore at some famous battle they might have some greater value. But the fact remains that they are a pair of breeches of they type commonly worn by literally thousands of people, and -- aside from your assertions -- with little or nothing to connect them to a gentleman who was, after all, only a minor Scottish nobleman and a decorated soldier. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how that turns a GBP100 pair of breeches into a GBP2,900 pair of breeches. To put it into perspective, 3,000 quid is about what you'd expect to pay for Lynedoch's sword, not his breeches.

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

I am well aware the breeches are not worth $2,950.00. Was it not you who suggested putting the buttons on eBay for "a ridiculously high reserve of $10,000"? I put the breeches on eBay to see what interest they would create and to find out more about them, which is exactly what has happened. I have been offered £400 so far for them but they will probably go to Lyon and Turnbull in Edinburgh with the other objects and perhaps end up with Lynedoch's other costumes and uniforms and swords in Edinburgh Castle that the family sold to the nation a few years ago.

It seems having belittled his breeches, you are now even trying to belittle Lord Lynedoch himself! Anyone who has taken the trouble to read up on him will appreciate he was highly respected by his peers and rather more than a mere "minor nobleman and decorated soldier". I'm afraid I take exception to your remarks which rather spoil the otherwise friendly and helpful atmosphere of this forum.

[jgorley]

Just a friendly note, there is no need to provide argumentative information here. You asked for help and help was offered. Posting the arguments of your friend won't benefit your request. It most likely will leave a sour taste in everyone's mouth and people will be less likely to offer up information. If the garments are heirlooms, personally I would keep them no matter the value. It is a family respect issue. If your uncle wants to keep them in the family, I say give them to him. Again, it is a family respect issue. Just my 2 bits, take it or leave it.
James

[BEEDEE]

A Scott rightly pointed out, this is a kilt forum. This thread started out as a kilt question that then got broadened to other clothing items.

Any continuing discussion on non-kilt related items may result in deletion or closing the post. See the rules on

Remember this is a KILT forum
Posts and/or threads containing topics not related to kilts or topics deemed questionable by the forum staff may be deleted, without cause.

Brian & the Forum Moderators.

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

Here is my original post again. So far I haven't managed to get any idea of the value of the kilts. As has been pointed out, the thread has been sidetracked by an argument about the date of the silk breeches. When they have been professionally examined, for the record I will let you know what date they are. In the meantime, it would be good to get some idea of the value of the kilts, sporran and buttons as I hoped to do with my first post.

For anyone who would like to read about Thomas Graham, descendant of Mary Stewart and later the Marquis of Montrose, General and second in command to the Duke of Wellington, here is an article about his distinguished career and connections with Burns and Sir Walter Scott:
http://www.electricscotland.com/webc...mas_graham.htm

Thank you in anticipation for any positive, constructive or helpful offerings:

"Hello to everyone on this interesting website. I am looking for some advice about 2 kilts, a sporran and some silver dress buttons that came down to me through my mother's side of the family.

The tartan is Graham (my mother was a Maxtone Graham). I would be grateful if someone can tell me what age the pleated kilt is, as it is possible it belonged to Thomas Graham, General Lord Lynedoch who was my ancestor.

The great kilt is a full width broadloom kilt and I believe it may be from the 18th century. It has a silk embroidered family monogram in the corner. If someone knows the age of this, I would also be grateful.

The silver dress buttons may be Victorian or Edwardian. I expect it is hard to tell without a hallmark although they do appear to be solid silver rather than plated. I have a Scottish uncle who is keen to acquire some of these things from me but have no idea of their value at the moment. If anyone can give me some indication so that we can agree a mutually happy deal, it would be very helpful.

Here are links to the kilts, sporran and buttons:
[URL="http://picasaweb.google.com/hughrance/KiltSporranSilverDressButtons?feat=directlink"]http://picasaweb.google.com/hughranc...eat=directlink

http://picasaweb.google.com/hughranc...eat=directlink

And if anyone is interested to see the extremely fine silk dress breeches that Lord Lynedoch wore on a night out at the ball, there are here, along with his white leather hunting breeches:
http://picasaweb.google.com/hughranc...eat=directlink

Thank you in advance for any advice you can give.

With best wishes,

Hugh"

[Phil]

My experience at auctions is that this type of clothing goes for a fairly reasonable price tag, aristocratic connections or no. Certainly less than they would cost new. Queen Victoria's knickers or a sporting shirt that can be framed, hung on a wall and admired will fetch more but the only thing you can do with kilts, breeches etc is wear them and if they don't fit no-one bids. I have to admit this is the first I have ever heard of a Lord Lynedoch although I did know of a Lynedoch Place and Street in the Park Circus area of Glasgow. Don't know if there is a connection and excuse my ignorance but I doubt if there is a large following or even any interest in the individual or his old clothing. I would keep the stuff in the family as heirlooms where someone actually knows about them.

[Hugh Anstruther Rance]

Thanks, indeed the idea is to keep the kilts in the family and my uncle wants to buy them from me. However, unfortunately so far no one has been able to give me any idea of the value for such a hand made pleated Victorian or Edwardian kilt, the sporran of similar period or for the earlier great kilt, so I am still in the dark! Suggestions are still welcome.

[Jock Scot]

Hugh, I think the suggestion of keeping them in the family is a good one. As to the value? To use a farming phrase; " the item is only worth what some one is willing to pay for it". Ask your uncle, he is at least a potential buyer, what he thinks your items are worth and go from there.

[Phil]

Thanks, indeed the idea is to keep the kilts in the family and my uncle wants to buy them from me. However, unfortunately so far no one has been able to give me any idea of the value for such a hand made pleated Victorian or Edwardian kilt, the sporran of similar period or for the earlier great kilt, so I am still in the dark! Suggestions are still welcome.

Sorry. These are just rough estimates going by similar items I have seen at past auctions and you really want to have them properly assessed by an expert (which I am not). The kilt probably £100-£120, but could well be less as it will probably need alteration costing about £100. The buttons are most probably silver but if not hallmarked would have to be described as white metal so £60 - £80 but possibly more to a button collector especially as they are a cased set. The sporan looks to only have a pewter cantle but these long-haired ones are fetching better prices nowadays and I would say £80 -£100, and probably more for silver mountings and a well known maker (if known).