Unsung Scots in American History #1

[Lachlan09]

If I remember correctly, today, April 17 is the day on which Virginia seceded.

Interestingly, let’s recall that parts of certain seceding states were split as to their loyalties. Most famously, were the Western counties of Virginia, which decided to stay with the Unites States and instead seceded from the secession ! Also, states like Tennessee, North Carolina and Alabama also had areas unwilling to secede and in time would furnish troops for the Union.

We all remember the observation of Knoxville, Tennessee in the early weeks of the secession, where there was a Confederate recruiting stand with uniformed officers, nco’s and flags attracting would-be recruits at one end of the main street and a Union army recruiting stand doing similarly for Honest Abe at the other end.

[macwilkin]

If I remember correctly, today, April 17 is the day on which Virginia seceded.

Interestingly, let’s recall that parts of certain seceding states were split as to their loyalties. Most famously, were the Western counties of Virginia, which decided to stay with the Unites States and instead seceded from the secession ! Also, states like Tennessee, North Carolina and Alabama also had areas unwilling to secede and in time would furnish troops for the Union.

We all remember the observation of Knoxville, Tennessee in the early weeks of the secession, where there was a Confederate recruiting stand with uniformed officers, nco’s and flags attracting would-be recruits at one end of the main street and a Union army recruiting stand doing similarly for Honest Abe at the other end.

Northwest Arkansas raised six regiments of "Mountain Feds" for the Union.

T.

[Brian K]

Never was a fan of Ruffin, anymore than I am John Brown. ;-)

T.

Amen

[Brian K]

I happened to come across this piece published in the N.Y. Times yesterday, regarding this anniversary.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/op...11meacham.html

I usually agree with Mr. Meacham and do so here, despite the fact that my on my mother's side I am descended from landed people in Asheville, NC. When she was a little girl, Mom thrilled my grandfather by telling him she'd name her first born (me - yikes!) Jefferson Davis Stonewall Jackson Lee. I'm glad she came to her senses.

[AFS1970]

Jefferson Davis Stonewall Jackson Lee.

WOW, that's better than J.D. Hogg!

Of course then you would be obliged to wear the Confederate Memorial Tartan

[Mael Coluim]

If I remember correctly, today, April 17 is the day on which Virginia seceded.

Interestingly, let’s recall that parts of certain seceding states were split as to their loyalties. Most famously, were the Western counties of Virginia, which decided to stay with the Unites States and instead seceded from the secession !

The western counties of Virginia felt they always got the short shrift from Richmond which was heavily controlled by the plantation owners in the Tidewater section of the state. They saw Virginia secession as an excellent opportunity to go their own way forming West Virginia.

[Hothir Ethelnor]

Interesting thread.

I have enjoyed the bit of discussion going on and hope no one will make it too political.

On my fathers side of the family my ancestors were northerners who supported the south.

Our family has always been southern sympathizers. One of my great great (not sure how many greats) uncles was an officer on Lee's staff.

My mom's side of the family came over shortly before WW1 so not too much American history there.

Of course as a Southern sympathizer I think that slavery is portrayed extremely out of proportion. (I believe that the racist slavery of the black people was an intolerable evil and we suffered for it.) But I can't see from research that slavery was worth the attention given to it now.

[Brian K]

Interesting thread.

I have enjoyed the bit of discussion going on and hope no one will make it too political.

On my fathers side of the family my ancestors were northerners who supported the south.

Our family has always been southern sympathizers. One of my great great (not sure how many greats) uncles was an officer on Lee's staff.

My mom's side of the family came over shortly before WW1 so not too much American history there.

Of course as a Southern sympathizer I think that slavery is portrayed extremely out of proportion. (I believe that the racist slavery of the black people was an intolerable evil and we suffered for it.) But I can't see from research that slavery was worth the attention given to it now.

Hmm, I'm not sure you can say slavery has been portrayed out of proportion when the backbone of the Southern economy was slavery. Had slavery been eliminated legislatively in as short a period as it took to fight the war it would still have devastated the South. The economic freedom argument that is frequently cited as the "real" cause of the war had more to do with the fact that the labor intensive, free labor dependent Southern economy was unable to match/compete with the pace of industrialization of the North. Indeed, the lack of industrialization in the South may have been the principal cause of the defeat of the South. (My grandfather used to say they just got worn out winning ) They simply could not match the North for the flow of essential war waging materiel.

Col. John Mosby - a Southern hero if there ever was one - wrote after the war that of course the war was fought over slavery, but after the war many on the losing side felt it was necessary to come up with prettier reasons to justify their treason. Jeff Davis talked about slavery as a cause of the war during the conflict, but after the war he wrote many books about it and apparently advised others writing about to use economic and states rights reasons to justify the revolt.

I have known Southerners who went to university in the deep South who studied history and had come to the conclusion that the principal and the proximate cause of the war was slavery, so not even all Southerners are "Southern sympathizers.'

I'll stop here because if I go any further I am likely to start getting political.



Regards,

Brian

[Deil the Yin]

Edmund Ruffin (Ruthven) 1796-1865 who gained fame as a farmer and agronomist. He is also credited, by some, as having fired the first shot against Ft. Sumter on April 12th, 1861, 149 years ago today.

I never realised Ruffin was a Scot! Excellent thread, thanks! It's a bit of an Epiphany (or a V8 moment at the very least) to tie in Confederate history month with Tartan Day/Culloden/etc. Excellent well!

There's a little flag company in Washington, Georgia named after him...just by-the-bye.

Not hijack Rathdown's thread, but you really need to read Life in the Confederate Army by William Watson, a Scot who served with the 3rd Louisiana Infantry in 1861 and 62...
T.

Oh! Oh! I want one! I want one!

Our local newspaper, The Free Lance Star carried this column 'The New Intolerance' in its Saturday's Editorial section.

GREAT editorial! Really well written, too, I thought. Thanks for the link.

In a modern context, when I moved with my family to work in Indonesia in 1995, we were expected to hire local women as maids. For me, the whole concept of a live-in house-maid was alien to me. We had always done chores, cooking etc ourselves and having a maid seemed indulgent, even decadent and only for toffs. We could do things for ourselves. We didn’t want a maid. However, the local nonyas (well-off Indonesian matrons) and expat wives told us that we must have a maid, it was expected. Not to have one was considered really odd and even unhelpful, as having a house-maid provided local employment. Having conceded that, when I found out how pathetically little maids were paid (the pay being pathetically little, not the maids who were at least 5 feet tall ) , I was shocked and wanted to pay a prospective maid much more, a fair wage. When I suggested this, I was pulled down by nonyas and expats alike and told that to pay too much would cause a mini-riot and completely upset the status quo, as word would get out and maids everywhere would demand more. That would make me highly unpopular with all the expats.

I've been trying to come up with a way to compare Slavery in the 1800's with what it would be like in a modern context, and I think this is VERY poignant... Thanks for posting.

I usually agree with Mr. Meacham and do so here, despite the fact that my on my mother's side I am descended from landed people in Asheville, NC. When she was a little girl, Mom thrilled my grandfather by telling him she'd name her first born (me - yikes!) Jefferson Davis Stonewall Jackson Lee. I'm glad she came to her senses.

Helluva name to live up to, that's for sure.

I find discussion of the War of Northern Aggression to be fascinating. Every time I have it out with a Yankee sympathiser opponent, I always find my secessionist sentiments a bit bolder. With all the propaganda from both sides I sincerely believe that it is a debate that will never be, nor can be, resolved definitively. Which may be why there was all the fighting back then... Of course with the way I feel about Yankees living in the South today, in 1865 I probably would've jumped at the chance to go shoot at some! Nothing personal, they just drive me crazy when the move down here...

Trust in God and Davis, but keep your powder dry!

Cheers yall.

[macwilkin]

I find discussion of the War of Northern Aggression to be fascinating. Every time I have it out with a Yankee sympathiser opponent, I always find my secessionist sentiments a bit bolder. With all the propaganda from both sides I sincerely believe that it is a debate that will never be, nor can be, resolved definitively. Which may be why there was all the fighting back then... Of course with the way I feel about Yankees living in the South today, in 1865 I probably would've jumped at the chance to go shoot at some! Nothing personal, they just drive me crazy when the move down here...

Trust in God and Davis, but keep your powder dry!

As the proud descendant of Western Federal soldiers, I find this last remark just a tad bit much. I have no problem with Southerners being proud of their history, but in order to get respect, you have to give it. There's a great scene in the movie The Rough Riders where the 1st US Volunteer Cavalry are passing through the South from San Antonio to Tampa before departing for Cuba in 1898. As the train rolls through Mississippi, Confederate veterans turn out to salute the troops. One young boy standing with his grandfather, a Confederate officer, says:

"But they are Yankees, grandpa! They're wearing blue!"

The grandfather (played by the fellow who played John Bell Hood in Gettysburg) replies:

"No, they're AMERICANS (emphasis mine)."

The War of the Rebellion ended in 1865. I've met some obnoxious Southerners in my time, some who were down right mean, but to use another movie quote, "Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit." That wasn't directed at Wesley personally, but it needed to be said. I don't hold a whole section of the nation responsible for a few numpties.

A proud Western Mudsill*,

Todd

*Yankees are from New England.