Why a kilt costs what it does...a re-re-re-hash

[Whidbey78]

I've wondered how a few people make a living in this business. After pricing PV from EVERY source I could find...even skipping a night's sleep once...running up a phone bill with international calls, I had to ask myself "What is the retail markup on this stuff?" Every price I could get was a retail rate. Nobody would give me a wholesale price.

It's what keeps me from even thinking about making a tartan kilt. I can buy one for $200-$300 depending on who I go to--and these are the companies with a reputation for customer service and quality product, not something farmed out to Whatever-stan. How can they charge that price when the fabric alone will cost that much at retail? That's before figuring in thread, canvas, straps, buckles, etc. So, I'll never make a tartan kilt unless a mind blowing deal falls in my lap. I gave up on that a while ago. Why drop two bills on cloth when for a couple of dollars more a pro can do and I don't have to worry about me messing up a high dollar piece of fabric.

I too considered eventually getting into the business--part time and without brick and mortar storefront--and went through the figures several times. Even when I found a way to make a little profit I decided that my free time was more valuable.

[Riverkilt]

Anyone who's been around knows we've had at least one at home kiltmaker up and leave with the money and not fill the kilt order. Sad, but true.

Don't know any kiltmakers who got into the business to get rich - a middleman or two maybe - but not a kiltmaker.

Was just a few years ago that the members of the Traditional Kiltmaker's Guild confronted Kathy Lare that her prices were too low. She'd been so busy sewing she hadn't thought much about keeping track of rising costs. She checked and found her peers were correct and raised her prices to where she could at least make a little money for her labors.

And for sure didn't mean to leave Steve and his well crafted Freedom Kilts out of my list.

For me, the proof is in the craftsmanship. "I can get it for you cheaper" sends me the other way...sorry, I choose quality goods.

You can have any two of price, quality, or service. I choose quality and service.

[bricelythgoe]

Brice,

The problem is, you're comparing apples to oranges... at least when discussing low end kilts (our Casual / Semi Trad) and Josh's PV models against Scotland's WOOL kilts. Our prices for 8 yard wool kilts are the same (roughly speaking) as those you get in Scotland. The quality is also on par with Scottish 8 yard kilts.

Also... about the 'physical store' thing: I'm not saying that I need to buy everything from the brick and mortar store itself. I am saying that I buy products from companies that HAVE a brick and mortar store (with very few exceptions). I may purchase from a company online, but I choose to purchase from one with a physical store as well. It limits the company's ability to just 'up and leave' with my money.

Again, I'm NOT saying any particular company (including SHO) would ever do that. What I AM saying is that it's re-assuring to me as a shopper and we choose to carry the philosophy over to our retail company.

I was not comparing wool with pv at all. Not sure where you got that idea. If you want, we can compare an SHO wool kilt with others if you like. But it was not the intent of this thread.

As far as a 'brick and mortar" store, I think that is important to some people. It is less and less important every day. That is the reason you have places like eBay. I think the newer generations have realized you don't need that to get a good product from a good company.

I took the original intent of this thread as this:

Don't complain about high prices for kilts, that is just the way it is. Besides they don't make hardly any money making a kilt anyways.

My counter point to that was that it made no sense. If USAK, or SHO, or Freedom Kilts, or any other place that offers custom made kilts makes VERY LITTLE on a kilt, then how do they stay in business? I offered only 2 possible explanations:

1. They are only at it part time and have a full-time job that pays better wages.

or

2. The accessories to their kilts that they sell are marked up quite high to make up for the low profit on the kilts (This would be more plausable. Many retail business do this).

I am sure all the people mentioned make high quality kilts. I am sure they love what they are doing. I am not sure, however, I am feeling the pity for the poor kilt makers that the original author of this thread intended when he started it.

Also, I never believe you can get to price on a product and never get lower and/or better. If that is the case, when is the price too low for a custom made kilt? Who decides it? I just don't think you can go around saying that something MUST, AND I MEAN MUST, be expensive. There is ALWAYS someone out there can do it BETTER than YOU, FASTER than YOU, and charge LESS than YOU. (you referring to everyone that makes a product)

[wildrover]

There is ALWAYS someone out there can do it BETTER than YOU, FASTER than YOU, and charge LESS than YOU.

This remains true only if there is a major disparity between the local economic costs where something is being manufactured, and where it is being sold, and assumes that a remote manufacturing facility will produce just as high quality goods as a facility which is selling product on-site to the end user.

The reality is, if we assume (safely, I believe) that Robert, Rocky, Barb, Steve, and others are at the top of their game, then we can also assume they're sewing, cutting, and pressing near the limit of human capability. If you want to increase the speed, you can start with a sewing machine where it's possible. Otherwise, if you are making kilts in the same method they do, then you'll be hard pressed to get "faster", and I suspect that if you find someone physically faster, the savings will be in single digit dollars. The other option would be to hire someone to keep shop, and assign sewing to a dedicated individual, then hope that accessory sales and kilt volume will make up for the administrative overhead. That would be "faster" in terms of reducing overall time to build a kilt, but it sure eats in to "cheaper". On a side note, that's why I don't bug people when I place an order, once the details are ironed out.

Never mind that "faster" also inherently increases the risk of inaccuracy.

"Better"? I'm pretty sure the traditional, and traditional style, kiltmakers are "the best" at what they do. If you're looking for "better", you're comparing against the skills of the people who advertise on this forum, and a few more who don't. I suspect there are less than a hundred "traditional" kiltmakers in business (as opposed to hobby) in the Western World. Anyone know for sure?

So let's look at cheaper, because that's the only place you'll make any ground.

Take the almighty dollar (anyone's dollar) as a reference. What is a dollar worth? I can buy a loaf of bread, and a quart of milk, or something like that. In a "developing nation," aka "Western economic opportunity", the same might cost the equivalent of a nickel.

Maybe less.

At any rate, you find a country like that, and you find that there's someone who can build a kilt in three days, so you give them 10$ worth of cheap plastic material, pay them three days' labor, which might be about a dollar...and 300 of that person's friends, so you put out three hundred bucks, 3K in material, fly home with your 300x 11$ kilts, divide your trip costs (let's call it a $3000 dollar round trip with vehicle and lodging to Northern Durkistan) by 300, add between a 10% and 30% markup for profit and overhead, and sell your kilts for about 25$ each.

Or 50$, or 59.98$, or whatever you think the market will bear.

So there you go...if that's "better" to you, then you've got the trifecta in hand. Better yet, if you've cornered the market and are selling to the same uneducated public that assumes shiny = good and inexpensive = deal, then you get...

...The Royal Mile, from what I hear.

Oh, and also Wal-Mart, Target, Kmart, Lowes, Home Depot, and the majority of the rest of the retail chains in the Western Hemisphere. It's getting harder and harder to find good quality products, but I can't throw a rock without hitting a "luxury" car, condo, or McMansion...all of which seem to be in a constant state of needing one sort of repair or another...go figure ...

-Sean

[RockyR]

Sean... VERY well said.

I was not comparing wool with pv at all. Not sure where you got that idea. If you want, we can compare an SHO wool kilt with others if you like. But it was not the intent of this thread.

I misunderstood. Sorry about that.

As far as a 'brick and mortar" store, I think that is important to some people. It is less and less important every day. That is the reason you have places like eBay. I think the newer generations have realized you don't need that to get a good product from a good company.

And that's also the reason you have companies like XXXX (name withheld as I do not like to put down competitors) who have dozens of complaints with the Golden Gate BBB and other BBB's across the nation. DOZENS of members up here on this board have been 'taken' by the company and can't sue them b/c the owner runs to another state to take up residence and sell his stuff. He sets up new company names to avoid the horrible reputation his old company name has.

Am I saying all Ebay stores or 'mail order only' or internet only businesses are bad? NO! I'm just saying (and again, this is my opinion only) that there is still something to be said for companies with a storefront... it shows a certain type of 'permenance' and commitment to the product line and customers. It's not as easy to walk away from a business that has a physical location.

Also, I never believe you can get to price on a product and never get lower and/or better. If that is the case, when is the price too low for a custom made kilt? Who decides it? I just don't think you can go around saying that something MUST, AND I MEAN MUST, be expensive. There is ALWAYS someone out there can do it BETTER than YOU, FASTER than YOU, and charge LESS than YOU. (you referring to everyone that makes a product)

Hmm... if we have our Drywall made in China, it's be 'the same quality' but cheaper. No, wait... that didn't work.

If we have our toys all made in China, they'll be the same quality as the toys from the 1950's. Oh wait, they're using lead paint on cheap plastic toys? That won't work.

Is there always someone better OR faster OR cheaper? Yes, pobably, but not necessarily ALL of those things. If he's (or SHE'S) better and faster, I doubt he'll be cheaper. If he's cheaper and faster, I doubt he'll be better. If he is, the market will bear it and one of the 2 will be forced to change prices or go out of business.

Like Riverkilt loves to say:

Of the following 3 things, you can choose 2: Speed, Quality and Price.


Most industries have the following segments:

Cheap and lower quality
Good Quality / Good price
HIGH Quality and HIGH price.

GENERALLY things are priced the way they are for a reason.

[NewEnglander]

My old man always says, "You get what you pay for."

So when I bought a $15 sgian or a $35 sporran off ebay am I surprised that they're not the best quality out there? Nope. But they're what I had the money for at the time. Now that I've got the funds, I can be more thoughtful about where I spend that cash. And having the chance to speak with the vendors that sponsor this site, as well as others recommended here, I'm damn pleased to support them and their business with my custom. Sure I'm playing a bit more, but I'm confident I'm getting a quality product and if, gods forbid, something isn't just right with what I purchase, these folks give the most incredible customer service I've seen anywhere.

[bricelythgoe]

This remains true only if there is a major disparity between the local economic costs where something is being manufactured, and where it is being sold, and assumes that a remote manufacturing facility will produce just as high quality goods as a facility which is selling product on-site to the end user.

Not what I am talking about. You are assuming that, not me.

The reality is, if we assume (safely, I believe) that Robert, Rocky, Barb, Steve, and others are at the top of their game, then we can also assume they're sewing, cutting, and pressing near the limit of human capability. If you want to increase the speed, you can start with a sewing machine where it's possible. Otherwise, if you are making kilts in the same method they do, then you'll be hard pressed to get "faster", and I suspect that if you find someone physically faster, the savings will be in single digit dollars. The other option would be to hire someone to keep shop, and assign sewing to a dedicated individual, then hope that accessory sales and kilt volume will make up for the administrative overhead. That would be "faster" in terms of reducing overall time to build a kilt, but it sure eats in to "cheaper". On a side note, that's why I don't bug people when I place an order, once the details are ironed out.

So, first, who decides those 3 people are at the top of their game? Also, who decides that they are the best? Who decides that they are as FAST as anyone can go? Seems a little subjective to me.

Never mind that "faster" also inherently increases the risk of inaccuracy.

"Better"? I'm pretty sure the traditional, and traditional style, kiltmakers are "the best" at what they do. If you're looking for "better", you're comparing against the skills of the people who advertise on this forum, and a few more who don't. I suspect there are less than a hundred "traditional" kiltmakers in business (as opposed to hobby) in the Western World. Anyone know for sure?

Traditional can me lots of different things. If by traditional, you mean traditionally TRAINED, then that eliminates most of the custom kilt makers on this form. Most have not had the training that others, Like Barb T., has had. Therefore, going by what you say is Traditional, most of the kilts made by people on this forum are NOT traditional and therfore not as good. Sounds a little silly to me.

So let's look at cheaper, because that's the only place you'll make any ground.
At any rate, you find a country like that, and you find that there's someone who can build a kilt in three days, so you give them 10$ worth of cheap plastic material, pay them three days' labor, which might be about a dollar...and 300 of that person's friends, so you put out three hundred bucks, 3K in material, fly home with your 300x 11$ kilts, divide your trip costs (let's call it a $3000 dollar round trip with vehicle and lodging to Northern Durkistan) by 300, add between a 10% and 30% markup for profit and overhead, and sell your kilts for about 25$ each.

So there you go...if that's "better" to you, then you've got the trifecta in hand. Better yet, if you've cornered the market and are selling to the same uneducated public that assumes shiny = good and inexpensive = deal, then you get...

Again, not what I am talking about. I never said anything about finding cheaper labor in a foreign country. We are talking about USA made goods. Sorry if you got lost in the conversation.

And that's also the reason you have companies like XXXX (name withheld as I do not like to put down competitors) who have dozens of complaints with the Golden Gate BBB and other BBB's across the nation. DOZENS of members up here on this board have been 'taken' by the company and can't sue them b/c the owner runs to another state to take up residence and sell his stuff. He sets up new company names to avoid the horrible reputation his old company name has.

Am I saying all Ebay stores or 'mail order only' or internet only businesses are bad? NO! I'm just saying (and again, this is my opinion only) that there is still something to be said for companies with a storefront... it shows a certain type of 'permenance' and commitment to the product line and customers. It's not as easy to walk away from a business that has a physical location.

Have you seen how many businesses and homes have gone into foreclosure? I think it is pretty easy for a business to do that. Circuit City, one of the largest electronics retailers, ended business pretty quick. They only stayed around because someone wanted to see if they could sell their stock.

Hmm... if we have our Drywall made in China, it's be 'the same quality' but cheaper. No, wait... that didn't work.

If we have our toys all made in China, they'll be the same quality as the toys from the 1950's. Oh wait, they're using lead paint on cheap plastic toys? That won't work.

Again, people are getting lost in the conversation. We are talking about US made goods. Not the cheap stuff that comes from China. Besides, how much drywall you going to see out of china now since that happened? Oh wait...none. Funny how the free market/capitalism punishes those that don't produce quality goods.

Is there always someone better OR faster OR cheaper? Yes, pobably, but not necessarily ALL of those things. If he's (or SHE'S) better and faster, I doubt he'll be cheaper. If he's cheaper and faster, I doubt he'll be better. If he is, the market will bear it and one of the 2 will be forced to change prices or go out of business.

Like Riverkilt loves to say:
Of the following 3 things, you can choose 2: Speed, Quality and Price.
Most industries have the following segments:
Cheap and lower quality
Good Quality / Good price
HIGH Quality and HIGH price.
GENERALLY things are priced the way they are for a reason.

That is a good way to justify doing two things:

1. Charging high prices (from a company owners perspective)
2. Paying High prices (from a consumers perspective)

If what you say is true, than you can justify whatever you want.

Also, who says you can only choose 2 out of 3 from speed, quality, price? Riverkilt? And exactly who has decided this? For heaven sakes I have just purchased two kilts within a years time and fullfilled ALL three of what you are saying. To say that HIGH quality means a High price is ridiculous. Again, that is another way to justify a high price. Are some things priced high because they should be? Yes. I have no problem with that. However, to make a blanket statement, that I have seen over and over, like this:

High Quality means High Price

That is just silly. Some people will buy into that, literally. And if that is how they want to spend their money, be my guest. If there is room in the market place for that attitude, than so be it. I really don't care. Despite wildrover referring to the general public as "uneducated", I think most people are smart enough to figure things out. Most people, me included, realize that a good quality item will cost more than normal. However, we also realize that paying a high price, just because some people say high price = high quality, does not always mean you will get high quality. It might even be the opposite In some cases, it is the sign of someone trying to rip you off.


Again this is my basic point: You can make High Quality items, in the USA, for a good price. Not necessarily a cheap price, but a good, fair price. I would say, Rocky, that the following groups you mentioned:

Good Quality / Good price
HIGH Quality and HIGH price.

Overlap more than people would realize.

Now I realize that I am probably falling on deaf ears when I say things like this on here. That is ok. I believe I have found several places that can make High Quality items for a reasonable price. Whether anyone believes that is not my concern.

I think we can AGREE to DISAGREE

[Whidbey78]

I think we can AGREE to DISAGREE

At least you didn't write "Can't we all get along?" Trust me...all h#ll breaks loose.

[bricelythgoe]

At least you didn't write "Can't we all get along?" Trust me...all h#ll breaks loose.

Hehehe... I think we are getting along. I have not recieved an e-mail from a moderator YET. Those usually come when I start speaking my mind.

[bricelythgoe]

Rocky,

Just so you know, you are one of the people I am referring to when I say that people can make a better product for the same/lower price. Josh from SHO is also one I am referring to. To quote you:

we realized that we could make the kilts better ourselves and sell them at the same price. After all... that's what Capitsalism is all about right? Building the better mousetrap?