Wearing a basket hilt.?.

[Geoff Withnell]

I'm not trying to start trouble or discord but you say that "dirks and swords are made and designed for one purpose, killing people."

Exactly what would the "tradition" of a small knife tucked away in a sock be, but to jam it in someone if the need arose? I know some talk about it's use as a skinning/utilitarian knife, but then why carry it to gatherings, dinners, etc, where there was very little skinning of animals? I think it splits hairs a little much to claim their purposes were dissimilar.

That being said, the sword, fun as it may be, is a little too much for general Highland wear, and the dirk is rarely a fit either.

Remember, the farther removed from our barbarian forebears we get, the shorter our daily blades become.

The tradition of a small knife tucked in my sock is to have a working knife at hand equivalent to a pocket knife when I don't have a pocket.

Geoff Withnell

[Dale Seago]

A Sgian dubh is justifiable on the grounds of utility and tradition, dirks and swords are made and designed for one purpose only - killing people.

Dirks and swords are simply part of an older Scottish tradition than the sgian dubh, and they were quite utilitarian and fit for their intended purpose back in the day. Just be thankful we don't borrow things from TOO far back in Gaelic culture and go head-hunting.

As for dirks and swords being "designed for one purpose only" (insert
Seinfeld quote: "Not that there's anything wrong with that!"). . .Where the sword is concerned, yes. The dirk, however, while certainly a weapon (one on which binding oaths were traditionally sworn, no less), was also a utilitarian tool. There are accounts of clansmen using them in the salmon fisheries, for example. (EDIT: On the fish, not on each other.)

[Harold Cannon]

I really dont see the big deal! I personally wouldn't wear one but thats me. The only case in wich I would wear one is for one of those old time pictures you see of all the highland chiefs. Which I plan on doing at some point. Then it goes right back on the wall.

[TheNaughtyScot]

As much grief as this thread may have given you and your new choice of accoutrements, I believe that you still need a good solid answer with pictures as you first requested. The basket hilt sword is similar to the cavalry sabre in wear and use. It has a long blade for slashing your enemy on foot or on horse back. This explains the rings on your scabbard. As you will see in the following link, the rings are made so that your sword will lay a bit further down upon your thigh when you are mounted atop horse; whereas, when you are walking about on foot, you bring the sword up and hook it closer to your belt. See the pictures and read the information about the military regulations, which haven't changed much since the Prussians wrote them for us prior to the Revolutionary War. I think that if worn properly, any item of Highland attire will seem dashing and appropriate. Items only seem out of place when worn improperly and without the confidence to wear them. So put yourself together well as your attire was meant to be worn and feel good to be smartly dressed, then you will look sharp.

http://www.militarysabers.com/how-to...rmy-saber.html

-Ian

[SlackerDrummer]

I have mixed feelings on the wearing of swords with highland attire and I can't say I've reached a conclusion other than that I likely wouldn't do it myself. As to it being brigadoonery, one might reasonably argue that any person who is not a (pure) Scot wearing highland attire outwith Scotland is themselves committing this dreadful act. Of course, as we all should know by now, it is all part and parcel of the same continuum.

For most of us non-Scots, our connection to Scotland is with auld Scotland, where (some of) our ancestors are from. It's one of the reasons we are so enamored with the Highlanders of Scotland series. And we see several of these gentlemen wearing swords with their highland attire. Sure it's their best highland attire, but as has been discussed at length on this forum, it is their finest daywear attire - exactly what many people put on to attend a highland games or clan gathering. It is important to note that when these paintings were made, the carrying of swords by civilians (which had been common among aristocrats for several centuries prior) had already fallen out of practice, so clearly they thought the wearing of the basket-hilt broadsword was a part of highland finery.

The fact that the highlanders stuck with the basket-hilt broadsword long after the rest of Europe had switched to the much-thinner rapier has made this sword a symbol of Scotland. And while the civilian carrying of swords is no longer in fashion, the fact that the Scottish regiments still use the basket-hilt broadsword means that it is still the relevant sword identified with Scotland today. I think there is, therefore, a reasonable argument that the wearing of the basket-hilt broadsword (with one's finest highland daywear) is a reasonable way to connect to auld Scotland without being brigadoonery.

My complaint is when I see someone dressed like William Wallace from Braveheart and wearing a basket-hilt sword. Yes, I've seen it.

[Jock Scot]

SlackerDrummer.

What the Scots military do and wear has very little to do with what Scots civilians wear. Three hundred years ago things were very different in Scotland. These days and for at least the last 100 years or so Scots civilians do not wear swords apart from a minority of a minority, posing for pictures . We here in Scotland whilst mildly interested in re-enactments regard all that history stuff as just a bit of history and just get on with wearing our 100 year old style kilts and argyll jackets. Why? Because frankly, they have stood the test of time and in reality no one yet, has come up with a better design.

If the Americans or Canadians or wherever they may come from, with Scots roots want to do their "Old"country a disservice then carry on with this play acting because the world of swords, targes, great kilts, 1790 history re-enactment societies, Jacobite memorial societies are all very interesting to some and good fun too no doubt. But its theatre and has nothing to do with Scotland of today,yesterday, last week, last decade, last centuary and beyond.

I know you all do not mean any harm but harm you are doing by not representing my country, NOT YOURS, to the uneducated (why should most people know the facts about Scotland?) who think what you do over there is what we do over here AND WE DONT!For example, your Highland Games are nothing like ours and we don't see the need to be festooned ,at any excuse, with blades either. Yes its brigadoonary at its worst I am afraid, unintentional though it is.

[Biathlonman]

I have shortened the straps which hold my sword - used for re-enacting only - because I gather the normal way of wearing a sword was to let it hang fairly low - a terrible nuisance. Marching with a sword one doesn't want it dragging or getting caught between one's legs - and one may remember that all men of a certain class wore these things at one time in Europe. It was the mark of a gentleman.

My sword belt - from The Highland Brigade - thankfully came with hooks to keep everything as high and out of the way as possible. If you are lucky enough to have a dirk, go with that instead and save yourself a lot of bother.

[SlackerDrummer]

Really? Really? Why on earth would somebody wear a sword unless one were in uniform and the regs required it? Ridiculous. I hope this man didn't outfit too many members of the club in Highland dress. Sheesh!

Perhaps you should ask the gentleman whose photo you posted a while back in the vintage photos forum, Sandy. It was a scan, apparently from a book, and the text was too small for me to read completely, but I did glean that it was a clan chief in "full dress," including a broadsword. It was not a military uniform.

Modern Basket-Hilted Broadswords, though, have a specific meaning- they are part of a uniform and identify those who have achieved a particular rank in a Scottish/Highland Regiment or hold a comparable rank in a pseudo-military context (i.e. Drum Major in a Pipe Band while wearing his band uniform).

David,
This argument appears to me to be disingenuous. You are confusing the argument both with your choice of words and your example. I don't believe the "modern" basket-hilt broadsword is different from the historical version which was carried by both civilians and the military, although I may be incorrect in that assumption. I would venture to guess that most people who are wearing basket-hilt broadswords to events like highland games are wearing replicas of historical swords. So even if there is a difference between between historical swords and the modern one, your point about who has earned the right to wear the modern one is moot. More to the point, though, the basket-hilt broadsword is not at all like the modern officer's or NCO's swords, which came into being after it was no longer fashionable for citizens to wear swords (thanks to the mass production of firearms). The basket-hilt broadsword, on the other hand, was carried by civilians for centuries, so transposing military customs onto its use isn't quite fair. It would be completely fair to suggest that no one should wear the sword you earned as an officer in the Marine Corps (did I get that right?), but the two are simply not analogous.

SlackerDrummer.

What the Scots military do and wear has very little to do with what Scots civilians wear. Three hundred years ago things were very different in Scotland. These days and for at least the last 100 years or so Scots civilians do not wear swords apart from a minority of a minority, posing for pictures .

See my response to David above regarding military v. civilian, but let me make sure I've got this next part right. No one in Scotland wears swords except for the few that do?

I think the same can be said for here.

If the Americans or Canadians or wherever they may come from, with Scots roots want to do their "Old"country a disservice then carry on with this play acting because the world of swords, targes, great kilts, 1790 history re-enactment societies, Jacobite memorial societies are all very interesting to some and good fun too no doubt. But its theatre and has nothing to do with Scotland of today,yesterday, last week, last decade, last centuary and beyond.

No disrespect at all, Jock, but it may not have anything to do with Scotland of today, yesterday, last week, last decade, or last century (the 20th), but it has everything to do with Scotland beyond. There is just too much evidence of the sword's use by civilians in general, and the preference of highlanders for the basket-hilt specifically, to prove otherwise. It may be anachronistic, but it is not irrelevant.

I know you all do not mean any harm but harm you are doing by not representing my country, NOT YOURS, to the uneducated (why should most people know the facts about Scotland?) who think what you do over there is what we do over here AND WE DONT!For example, your Highland Games are nothing like ours and we don't see the need to be festooned ,at any excuse, with blades either. Yes its brigadoonary at its worst I am afraid, unintentional though it is.

First of all, let's be clear. I'm not doing anything of the sort. I don't wear a sword. I don't even own a sword. And I'm not advocating the wearing of swords, but I also think there is plenty of historical precedent for it. I stress the word historical. I am very aware of the fact that it isn't in vogue today and that it hasn't been for probably a hundred years or more. But there is nothing more brigadoonish about wearing a sword than there is about wearing one of those ridiculous "highlander" shirts or whatever they're called, but those are popular enough that even the most respected highland-wear retailers stock them. In fact, we know that swords were at some point in history worn by civilians with the kilt. And we know that shirts like that were never worn with the kilt at any point in history. Interestingly, I don't see the same ire regarding them.

[artificer]

... stuff about swords...

But there is nothing more brigadoonish about wearing a sword than there is about wearing one of those ridiculous "highlander" shirts or whatever they're called, but those are popular enough that even the most respected highland-wear retailers stock them. In fact, we know that swords were at some point in history worn by civilians with the kilt. And we know that shirts like that were never worn with the kilt at any point in history. Interestingly, I don't see the same ire regarding them.

All you need do is hit the "search" function with the term "brigadoon" or similar to see that the feeling is quite similar, and from the same, or greater, crowd.


The only way I could EVER see wearing a sword is if it were part of some "badge of office" type situation. The Knights of Columbus have one, I'm sure others do as well. EVEN then it would have to be a "Full Formal" white tie situation or other very high ceremony in the context of the organization.

Swords are a pain.

Puffy shirts are as well - I couldn't see myself EVER in one of those.

ith:

[JSFMACLJR]

Perhaps you should ask the gentleman whose photo you posted a while back in the vintage photos forum, Sandy. It was a scan, apparently from a book, and the text was too small for me to read completely, but I did glean that it was a clan chief in "full dress," including a broadsword. It was not a military uniform.
.

Kenneth, if you are referring to the photograph of the MacNeil of Barra,

then it is worth pointing out that he is wearing a uniform, Highland Court Dress, worn by gentlemen at levees, State Balls, coronations, and such. The dress regulations are spelled out in publications from the Lord Chamberlain. Gentlemen commanded to attend The Sovereign at Court had/have no choice but to wear what is prescibed by the Lord Chamberlain.