POLL-Do you want this tartan?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I would vote Nay- both because I am not an X-tian & the cost & problems. I would recommend a different choice- at less cost- that I saw a Physician use at the Maine Highland Games. He wore his Clann Bruce wee kilt, with a very pricey sporran,on the flap of which was a tooled leather image of the Caddusses(the Dr. Symbol of Snake on a Pole) and then worked in gold leaf. For the X-tian you could use a metal, tooled leather &tc. symbol of your faith: the Shield do-dad of the Espicolipans, the Angle Moroni of the Mormons, the Rooster of the Catholic Church(the Catholic Churchs for long centurys had a cock(rooster)on theirchurch spires, only in recent history did they use a Cross-the rooster being for St.Peter & assorted misc. religious reasons) and on and on. I assume a Buddist could put a prayer wheel on there as well.
I would hazard to guess that you might include the St.Andrews cross on the sporran body, just to finish the 'theme'
Now hows that for off the wall!

Just as a point of clarification, the use of the cross as a symbol for Christianity goes back to the fourth century AD, based on archaeological evidence (stone monuments, etc.), and almost certainly earlier than that, if one considers the cross in other forms. So, not quite the "recent history" that you might suggest.

But I agree with your suggestions, that a symbol of one's faith could easily be incorporated into one's Highland attire in other ways. I, for one, own a Celtic Cross kilt pin. I also often wear a lapel pin with a religious meaning (I own several given to me for service to my parish). I have a wonderful Chi Rho belt buckle that Tyger Forge made for me!

Something like that could easily be fashioned into a cap badge, a sporran badge, etc.

By the way, did you know that the most probable origin for the Celtic Cross is the Chi Rho? I saw this demonstrated once in a book about early Celtic Cross monuments in the British Isles (that I wish I had bought). The Chi Rho is usually shown like this, with the two characters one over the other.


But this book showed some early British carvings with the Chi (X) inside the loop of the Rho (P). I can't find an image, you'll have to use your imagination. But that's pretty close, visually speaking, to a cross with a circle around the top, so it was a fairly quick artistic transition to make -- especially once the cross began to be used more widely as a symbol for the Christian faith.

[rlloyd]

Matt, I've been eyeing that Chi Rho belt buckle for some time now. Had never noticed before that you offer them through the museum. Tyger Forge also offers Chi Rho kilt pins, for anyone which might be interested.

Also, as an aside to Matt (if you see this), I'm planning to make my first visit to the museum on Thursday; if you're around that day, hope to get to meet you!

[mookien]

As someone who is not religious, I have to commend y'all on the 'leap of faith' required to commit to buying a tartan without seeing it first!

Of all the thoughtful comments, this was my favorite - succinct and funny. But, if I understand what is being proposed, then we are not actually committed to buying tartan cloth, but only committed to the design, registration (including submission of a tartan sample, I presume), and weaving of a minimal amount of cloth. If in error, please correct me.

The worst-case "cost" scenario would occur if, after the minimal weaving, no one decided to purchase additional cloth. Then, the (as yet unnamed) "Christian" tartan would at least be "official" and available for possible future use. Even the worst case doesn't seem preclusive to me.

So, I am favorably disposed towards the proposal, and intend to vote for it, but with one proviso for continued support - that enough folks participate to amortize the total cost over a reasonably large integer, say on the order of 10, so that the cost to each participant isn't too burdensome.

[Paul Henry]

...snip But, if I understand what is being proposed, then we are not actually committed to buying tartan cloth, but only committed to the design, registration (including submission of a tartan sample, I presume), and weaving of a minimal amount of cloth. If in error, please correct me..........snip

Whilst the idea is interesting ( but in my view misguided), it really would never get through the registration criteria as their is no"authority" to register it under, if it was the Xmarks Christian tartan" then the Tartan Register might be inclined to allow it, but in the same way that a "national or corporate" tartan isn't registered without a great deal of discussion and paperwork and agreement, there simply isn't any Christian body who can make those decisions.
a quote from the SRT "Where a tartan is named for a formal company or organisation, giving the impression of an association with it, by use of the official title or commonly used nickname, then the application must be accompanied by a letter of authority from a prominent office-bearer in the appropriate body e.g. the Chief Executive. "
Sorry but I don't think , as with the overwhelming majority of the posters so far, that this idea will get very far.

[figheadair]

A simple crucifix has been more than enough for 2000 years, is there, therefore, a need for a tartan which will be recognised by no one? I voted no.

Regards

Chas

Whilst the idea is interesting ( but in my view misguided), it really would never get through the registration criteria as their is no"authority" to register it under, if it was the Xmarks Christian tartan" then the Tartan Register might be inclined to allow it, but in the same way that a "national or corporate" tartan isn't registered without a great deal of discussion and paperwork and agreement, there simply isn't any Christian body who can make those decisions.
a quote from the SRT "Where a tartan is named for a formal company or organisation, giving the impression of an association with it, by use of the official title or commonly used nickname, then the application must be accompanied by a letter of authority from a prominent office-bearer in the appropriate body e.g. the Chief Executive. "
Sorry but I don't think , as with the overwhelming majority of the posters so far, that this idea will get very far.

I'm totally in agreement with my UK colleges on this one. I bet that if one did a poll over here most people's reaction would be 'why?'.

I know I'm getting on my hobby horse but the tartan for everything and every occasion drives me mad but I guess it's a feature of the need to belong rather than wearing something truly old and original simply because it's a beautiful design.

[McClef]

The sporran symbol is an interesting one but it would be more individual rather than corporate.

But some tartans would be theoretically possible where there is a centralised authority to approve and authorise the design. Where there are federations this would be much more difficult, even impossible.

As to the Cock - over here we call them "Weathercocks" which are placed on "Weathervanes" and are more useful in indicating wind direction than for anything else. Any previous significance would now be little known, even I was not aware of what was decreed in the ninth century until I read it here.

[biblemonkey]

But, if I understand what is being proposed, then we are not actually committed to buying tartan cloth, but only committed to the design, registration (including submission of a tartan sample, I presume), and weaving of a minimal amount of cloth. If in error, please correct me.

The worst-case "cost" scenario would occur if, after the minimal weaving, no one decided to purchase additional cloth. Then, the (as yet unnamed) "Christian" tartan would at least be "official" and available for possible future use. Even the worst case doesn't seem preclusive to me.

So, I am favorably disposed towards the proposal, and intend to vote for it, but with one proviso for continued support - that enough folks participate to amortize the total cost over a reasonably large integer, say on the order of 10, so that the cost to each participant isn't too burdensome.

Yes, you are understanding the proposal correctly. Good suggestion on the costs, too.

[mookien]

... it really would never get through the registration criteria as their is no"authority" to register it under, if it was the Xmarks Christian tartan" then the Tartan Register might be inclined to allow it, but in the same way that a "national or corporate" tartan isn't registered without a great deal of discussion and paperwork and agreement, there simply isn't any Christian body who can make those decisions.
a quote from the SRT "Where a tartan is named for a formal company or organisation, giving the impression of an association with it, by use of the official title or commonly used nickname, then the application must be accompanied by a letter of authority from a prominent office-bearer in the appropriate body e.g. the Chief Executive. "...

If I infer correctly from the OP's original post, the above statement from the SRT does not apply. The submission for registration would not come from a company or organization. Instead, it would come from what the SRT refers to as "an informal group of individuals". Or, perhaps, it might be registered as a Commemorative tartan.

Clearly, the name of the tartan would have to be carefully chosen. I can understand "The Christian" or "Christian" having difficulty passing muster for obvious reasons, but perhaps a name like "Nicene", "Apostle", "Born Again", etc. would be acceptable. I really don't know, but others more familiar with the registration process might give us some ideas.

[Paul Henry]

If I infer correctly from the OP's original post, the above statement from the SRT does not apply. The submission for registration would not come from a company or organization. Instead, it would come from what the SRT refers to as "an informal group of individuals". Or, perhaps, it might be registered as a Commemorative tartan.

Clearly, the name of the tartan would have to be carefully chosen. I can understand "The Christian" or "Christian" having difficulty passing muster for obvious reasons, but perhaps a name like "Nicene", "Apostle", "Born Again", etc. would be acceptable. I really don't know, but others more familiar with the registration process might give us some ideas.

Almost anyone can register a tartan these days, but the naming of such a tartan is usually carefully vetted, the crux of the matter is "who" is actually registering the tartan on what authority, and I suspect that anything that uses a religious title/name will attract a very through discussion process,I can't see how "Nicene" or "Apostle" ( for example ) would be acceptable as both those words have a huge meaning behind them, and any new registrant is not part of that history, and consequently not be part of an executive body, even if they sully subscribe to the history/meaning of such.
So, yes the name would have to include some sort of club/association/commemoration in the title, but even then I suspect there would be hesitations in it being permitted.

[AFS1970]

I voted yes, however would qualify this in that seeing the final product will be important. Not just for appearance, as the intention here is of far more significance than a "fashion tartan" but also to see how it is designed and if I think the process achieves the goal. The St, Ninian's tartan is a great example of this, there is a whole lot of features to that tartan and I expect this idea to follow much of the same methods to include allot of features.

As for the name, well I like the idea of calling it the Christian tartan, I really don't care what confusion that might cause amongst those that would not wear it. I like the idea of calling it the Nicene tartan, I would prefer the Nicene Creed tartan lest it be confused with any attempts as a district tartan for Nicea.

I too think that the recent tartan proliferation is not all that positive, however I have come to realize that it is here to stay. Even those that bring this up however often own a kilt or three in a competing tartan or made by the register of such a tartan. So really we have to look at the positive intent of such tartans, even if they do inadvertently muddy the waters. It seems that like the idea of clans was to unite individuals under a common banner and Chieftan, that a Christian tartan is designed to unite Christians under a common banner and a single figure. There is a very positive message here that goes beyond the tartan itself.

So I am a yes, and will actively participate in the process and any resulting debates/discussions we have about it. My main concern is that when we get into color choices and start associating meanings to those colors, let us not forget that some of these colors do not mean the same thing to everyone. I think a good starting point would be the liturgical colors, although not all denominations use them and some use different ones, it at least gives us a place to start from.