13th Century

[Sir Didymous]

The thing is that I was asked to do a short (30 min), demonstraition of combat techniques used by Scottish warriors through the later half of the middle ages and early Ren. period. I was asked to do this by someone with a passing knowledge of Scottish history. My troop which normaly does nothing close to this urged Sir Wulfscyld (another member of the troop) and myself to do this simply for the exposure. It's being done free so we can't spend a lot of money on the equipment or costumes, and the audience in question is a group of boy scouts. So we are hurrying to piece together make-shift kits that are a blend of what the kids will recignize and still have some historical merit. This goal, to be honest is turning into a nightmare. I'm starting to think that we should just cut back to using out English kits just slightly tweeked with some north-of-the-border flair. I figure that I could put together a quick kit and refine it later if I enjoyed doing this. The liberties we are taking are due to a lack of time, but even so we are tying to use reasonable facsimilies of what we know to be accurate. The only "could have been" I have is a French style axe and I figured that since the Scotts and French were military allies much of the period we are being asked to portray (a window so big that it's hard to pin down a look), that a Frenchaxe would not be out of the question. So much of living history is about modest beginings and the constant work toward the goal of authenticity.

As to the sources for the early targes, I based this on art references from the period. As with other weapons, it is not quite fully developed, but it is the direct ancestor to the final targe.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/apoc...t-d-4-17/1859/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/the-...or-ee359/3189/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/quee...l-2-b-vii/803/

Note the center figure in the second image. He is using a two hand axe with a small shield fixed to his upper arm. The fist could be termed a buckler, but the third image is definatly a target. There are a few others in that site that depict them, but thase were the ones I could think of on the spot.

[Ryan Ross]

The thing is that I was asked to do a short (30 min), demonstraition of combat techniques used by Scottish warriors through the later half of the middle ages and early Ren. period. I was asked to do this by someone with a passing knowledge of Scottish history. My troop which normaly does nothing close to this urged Sir Wulfscyld (another member of the troop) and myself to do this simply for the exposure. It's being done free so we can't spend a lot of money on the equipment or costumes, and the audience in question is a group of boy scouts. So we are hurrying to piece together make-shift kits that are a blend of what the kids will recignize and still have some historical merit. This goal, to be honest is turning into a nightmare. I'm starting to think that we should just cut back to using out English kits just slightly tweeked with some north-of-the-border flair. I figure that I could put together a quick kit and refine it later if I enjoyed doing this. The liberties we are taking are due to a lack of time, but even so we are tying to use reasonable facsimilies of what we know to be accurate. The only "could have been" I have is a French style axe and I figured that since the Scotts and French were military allies much of the period we are being asked to portray (a window so big that it's hard to pin down a look), that a Frenchaxe would not be out of the question. So much of living history is about modest beginings and the constant work toward the goal of authenticity.

As to the sources for the early targes, I based this on art references from the period. As with other weapons, it is not quite fully developed, but it is the direct ancestor to the final targe.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/apoc...t-d-4-17/1859/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/the-...or-ee359/3189/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/quee...l-2-b-vii/803/

Note the center figure in the second image. He is using a two hand axe with a small shield fixed to his upper arm. The fist could be termed a buckler, but the third image is definatly a target. There are a few others in that site that depict them, but thase were the ones I could think of on the spot.

I was never questioning the use of a round shield (center grip, OR mounted like a targe)... what I was really hoping for was a bit of historical refrence to using a greatsword, or even a longsword, in conjunction with a shield gripped in the hand (as opposed to mounted on the shoulder).

Have you any pictures or descriptions that show such an arrangement? I've never seen or heard of such a thing, and would as a result, be most interested.

I'm still very confused, as you've said that target an essentially longsword were used together, but my more than passing knowledge of longsword techniques suggests that that would be virtually impossible. The longsword would need to be used one handed (after an identical manner to the single hand sword), sacrificing a good bit of speed and power, or else it would be used two handed, but the majority of it's techniques would be made impossible, due to the shield.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I'm very much sceptical, I must admit.

[Sir Didymous]

I'm currently trying to find my original source that made me want to try it. If your interested, tomorow I have a sword practice that I would be willing to use the combo in and record it. Just to show that it can be done. Bear in mind that my war sword only weighs in at just over 2.5 lbs. It's specs are as follows:
Blade Length: 98 cm
Blade width: 4.5cm
Blade thickness at tang: 4mm
Guard width: 25.5cm
Handle length (including guard and pommel): 29cm
Overall lentgh: 128cm

It's a Windslass Steelcrafts sword, and has a great temper.

[Ryan Ross]

I'm currently trying to find my original source that made me want to try it. If your interested, tomorow I have a sword practice that I would be willing to use the combo in and record it. Just to show that it can be done. Bear in mind that my war sword only weighs in at just over 2.5 lbs. It's specs are as follows:
Blade Length: 98 cm
Blade width: 4.5cm
Blade thickness at tang: 4mm
Guard width: 25.5cm
Handle length (including guard and pommel): 29cm
Overall lentgh: 128cm

It's a Windslass Steelcrafts sword, and has a great temper.

I would very much be interested in hearing how your practice comes out, as well as what type of techniques you end up using. I know this may be a slight stretch from the origin of the topic, but I think it's still relevant and hope that no one will take offence to this sort of info being included.

I'll also do a bit of conversion from cm to in, and get an idea of what sort of blade you're using. Off hand, it doesn't sound toooo big, but I'd like to have a better idea in my mind.

Like I said before, I'm certainly interested in giving you the benefit of the doubt here, and will look forward to what you find out in your experiments.

[MacGumerait]

The thing is that I was asked to do a short (30 min), demonstraition of combat techniques used by Scottish warriors through the later half of the middle ages and early Ren. period. I was asked to do this by someone with a passing knowledge of Scottish history. My troop which normaly does nothing close to this urged Sir Wulfscyld (another member of the troop) and myself to do this simply for the exposure. It's being done free so we can't spend a lot of money on the equipment or costumes, and the audience in question is a group of boy scouts. So we are hurrying to piece together make-shift kits that are a blend of what the kids will recignize and still have some historical merit. This goal, to be honest is turning into a nightmare. I'm starting to think that we should just cut back to using out English kits just slightly tweeked with some north-of-the-border flair. I figure that I could put together a quick kit and refine it later if I enjoyed doing this. The liberties we are taking are due to a lack of time, but even so we are tying to use reasonable facsimilies of what we know to be accurate. The only "could have been" I have is a French style axe and I figured that since the Scotts and French were military allies much of the period we are being asked to portray (a window so big that it's hard to pin down a look), that a Frenchaxe would not be out of the question. So much of living history is about modest beginings and the constant work toward the goal of authenticity.

As to the sources for the early targes, I based this on art references from the period. As with other weapons, it is not quite fully developed, but it is the direct ancestor to the final targe.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/apoc...t-d-4-17/1859/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/the-...or-ee359/3189/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/quee...l-2-b-vii/803/

Note the center figure in the second image. He is using a two hand axe with a small shield fixed to his upper arm. The fist could be termed a buckler, but the third image is definatly a target. There are a few others in that site that depict them, but thase were the ones I could think of on the spot.

Sir Didymous ,

Given all that you said above , perhaps you could open by telling the Boy Scouts that Scottish Knights and English Knights during the time period of the 1500s ( the Ren period ) were often outfitted the same .

Also as mentioned earlier about William Wallace , perhaps you could have a tartan cloth wrapped around your armour like a plaid as opposed to the cape in your avatar . This could be done last minute without a lot of cost and give a Scottish identifier which would be somewhat historically accurate .

At that point , you could give your battle demonstration .

In addition , at most Scottish Festivals there are often Scottish re-enactment groups , usually a group dressed as the Black Watch from the 1700s .

You might be able to ask the Black Watch group to be present at your demonstration , then once your done , introduce them and tell the Boy Scouts that 200 years later the Scottish soldiers became known as a group like this , and the Scottish soldier became known to the world as something very similar .

This would allow you to demonstrate your battle skills of that time period , be outfitted pretty much historically accurate and give the Boy Scouts a visual of the kilted soldier at the end .

This might satisfy the expectation of the battle performance and give the boys a quick big picture history of Scottish knights of the 1500s , then fast forward them 200 years to something they more relate to today's world .

Just food for thought . Best wishes on your performance !

Mike

[Sir Didymous]

Sir Didymous ,

Given all that you said above , perhaps you could open by telling the Boy Scouts that Scottish Knights and English Knights during the time period of the 1500s ( the Ren period ) were often outfitted the same .

Also as mentioned earlier about William Wallace , perhaps you could have a tartan cloth wrapped around your armour like a plaid as opposed to the cape in your avatar . This could be done last minute without a lot of cost and give a Scottish identifier which would be somewhat historically accurate .

At that point , you could give your battle demonstration .

In addition , at most Scottish Festivals there are often Scottish re-enactment groups , usually a group dressed as the Black Watch from the 1700s .

You might be able to ask the Black Watch group to be present at your demonstration , then once your done , introduce them and tell the Boy Scouts that 200 years later the Scottish soldiers became known as a group like this , and the Scottish soldier became known to the world as something very similar .

This would allow you to demonstrate your battle skills of that time period , be outfitted pretty much historically accurate and give the Boy Scouts a visual of the kilted soldier at the end .

This might satisfy the expectation of the battle performance and give the boys a quick big picture history of Scottish knights of the 1500s , then fast forward them 200 years to something they more relate to today's world .

Just food for thought . Best wishes on your performance !

Mike

I like this idea, although I'm not in close contact with any later period Scots. I'll see if I can't flush some out of the Local SCA groups. We have al least two withing 20 min. of where I live. Good people, but I just can't wear plate armor and use wooded weapons.

[MacGumerait]

I like this idea, although I'm not in close contact with any later period Scots. I'll see if I can't flush some out of the Local SCA groups. We have al least two withing 20 min. of where I live. Good people, but I just can't wear plate armor and use wooded weapons.

Sir Didymous ,

Given that your performance to the Boy Scouts is to be done at a Scottish Festival , you may discover that a Black Watch re-enactment group is already slated to be there . If so , they generally have a tent located in close proximity to the clan tents .

You might be able to stop by their tent and ask if a couple of them would be willing to join you in a 30 min presentation to the Boy Scouts .

After re-reading your original thread , I am sure that I have my dates messed up on my post regarding the time period you have been asked to represent .

After reading your original thread , I read all the posts and by that time I was getting a little confused on the time period issue .

However , according to most of the posts , the Scottish garb of the time period that you are being asked to represent is pretty much the same as you currently use , therefore , add a touch of tartan to it which fits an earlier post about William Wallace .

This might allow you to educate the Scouts and it still be affordable and argueablly historically accurate .

Bringing the 1700's Black Watch re-enactors in at the end would give the Scouts a tie between the very old ( your group ) , the recent old ( the Black Watch re-enactors group ) and the current day ( the Scottish Festival itself ) .

Just sayin .

Sorry to be long winded here , but I was a Boy Scout myself and am a member of the National Scouts Honor Society ( Order of the Arrow ) and try to help them whenever they ask . I remember that anytime a group ( such as yours ) wanted to teach us something , we actually learned from it and that is the main thing !

As my Scottish grandfahter used to say , " the main thing , is to keep the main thing , as the main thing " .

Best regards , Mike

[Ryan Ross]

...I just can't wear plate armor and use wooded weapons.

Somehow, I don't think Miyamoto Mushashi and yourself would have gotten along very well. But given the chance, he would have almost certainly shown you what a piece of wood can do.

And don't forget that historically, the quaterstaff was very widely considered the strongest of hand-held weapons; that's right, stronger than your longsword!

[Sir Didymous]

Sorry about the metric. I just copied and pasted from a discussion I was having with a gentleman from the UK on my troops forum. www.orderoftherouseclan.proboards.com

I got the video made, but it will take a few days to get it from Salatitia (Wulfscyld's wife). Here camera isn't compatable with our computer. Here's the heads-up, we are not in full priod attire, it was just a training fight.

[Ryan Ross]

Sorry about the metric. I just copied and pasted from a discussion I was having with a gentleman from the UK on my troops forum. www.orderoftherouseclan.proboards.com

I got the video made, but it will take a few days to get it from Salatitia (Wulfscyld's wife). Here camera isn't compatable with our computer. Here's the heads-up, we are not in full priod attire, it was just a training fight.

Oh man- video is gold. It'll be well worth the wait!

And no sweat, on the metric... it keeps a dumb American like me on my toes.