The Battle for the Kilt in Saint Louis, Missouri - USA

[Mickey]

Thorina, my son also occasionally wears pajamas to school. He does so because his school allows it and actually has pajama days. I'd rather he didn't (In fact I hate it, but it is allowable/encouraged by the school on certain days). He is 4.0 student. Should he be punished for what he wears?

I know the entire story of the Granite City kid. And it all comes down to the fact that this kid wanted to wear something that wasn't the norm. Regardless of his reasons, whether he thought it would be a joke, or if he really thought it was a heritage thing, why does it matter during a school dance? Which rules was he breaking and are those rules really valid?

Again. We've seen the posted Granite City rules, vs the Marquette Rules.

Technically, he broke the rules of his school. Are those rules really valid? Per his city, yes. Which is why St. Louis is ticked off.

[Jock Scot]

On the subject of rules, many, many years ago, I was advised by a very wise and renowned leader of men who said:-

"Rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the adherence of idiots"

Something I have never forgotten.

[Thorina]

If it's some sort of "spirit week" school thing for the pajamas, then ok...I understand.
If you go to our local high school, you'd see more than one student in pajama bottoms and a hoodie. Boy's underpants on display....a sea of Fruit of the Loom! LOL
Upper middle class suburbanites playing "we live in the hood".
Yo, B-Rad.


Sounds from reading the schools dress code, that basically a uniform is required. Jeans are not allowed, khaki and navy are meantioned repeatedly as acceptable colors. As a guess, perhaps this school isnt in the best of neighborhoods? It just a guess due to strict dress codes, possible uniform enforcement and repeated gang meantions in regard to dress code.
In such an area, I might imagine a fella in a kilt might cause an uproar at a school function.
I still do not understand where the school board, etc came in. How did they get involved?


I would have prefered to see the young man in full proper Highland dress, if that's what he intended to wear to the prom.
It is a formal event. Honoring heritage or not, he needed to be in formal attire.
That would be far more difficult to disagree with, IMO.
Formal highland dress is pretty impressive looking.

The 2 biggest things about this story that made me go, "Hmmm" is 1) a school administrator in this day and age being stupid enough to actually say something like "must dress as a man" it sounds too much like inflammatory hear say...and 2) why is the kid 19 and still in high school.
The picture of the kid in a leather biker jacket really didn't excite me to take his side, either.

No one died and it's about an Anglo cultural thing.
You can't play the race card.
Everyone has sort of tip toed around that basic fact.
If he'd been fighting for wearing the cultural dress of any other culture, all's he'd have to do is play the race card, and he'd win automatically. It's the only reason we heard about it at all.

He'd have been far better off stating that he is a cross dresser and planned to wear a skirt. The school board would likely have let him rather than face a potential law suit. The school board isn't worried about being sued over an Anglo kid's right to honor his heritage.

Anyway....since so many here decided to write letters, etc....take it a step further and have some fellas in the area help the boy out with a proper jacket, etc. It's important enough to get all up in arms over the introwebs....so be sure to follow through in a way that will help the kid out. I am a little sad someone didn't do that before the hearing. It could have made a difference. A show of a sea of kilted men in the board room would also have been impressive.
In other words, Face Book doesn't change the world, neither does e mail letters.

[Thorina]

double post

[MacGumerait]

If it's some sort of "spirit week" school thing for the pajamas, then ok...I understand.
If you go to our local high school, you'd see more than one student in pajama bottoms and a hoodie. Boy's underpants on display....a sea of Fruit of the Loom! LOL
Upper middle class suburbanites playing "we live in the hood".
Yo, B-Rad.


Sounds from reading the schools dress code, that basically a uniform is required. Jeans are not allowed, khaki and navy are meantioned repeatedly as acceptable colors. As a guess, perhaps this school isnt in the best of neighborhoods? It just a guess due to strict dress codes, possible uniform enforcement and repeated gang meantions in regard to dress code.
In such an area, I might imagine a fella in a kilt might cause an uproar at a school function.
I still do not understand where the school board, etc came in. How did they get involved?


I would have prefered to see the young man in full proper Highland dress, if that's what he intended to wear to the prom.
It is a formal event. Honoring heritage or not, he needed to be in formal attire.
That would be far more difficult to disagree with, IMO.
Formal highland dress is pretty impressive looking.

The 2 biggest things about this story that made me go, "Hmmm" is 1) a school administrator in this day and age being stupid enough to actually say something like "must dress as a man" it sounds too much like inflammatory hear say...and 2) why is the kid 19 and still in high school.
The picture of the kid in a leather biker jacket really didn't excite me to take his side, either.

No one died and it's about an Anglo cultural thing.
You can't play the race card.
Everyone has sort of tip toed around that basic fact.
If he'd been fighting for wearing the cultural dress of any other culture, all's he'd have to do is play the race card, and he'd win automatically. It's the only reason we heard about it at all.

He'd have been far better off stating that he is a cross dresser and planned to wear a skirt. The school board would likely have let him rather than face a potential law suit. The school board isn't worried about being sued over an Anglo kid's right to honor his heritage.

Anyway....since so many here decided to write letters, etc....take it a step further and have some fellas in the area help the boy out with a proper jacket, etc. It's important enough to get all up in arms over the introwebs....so be sure to follow through in a way that will help the kid out. I am a little sad someone didn't do that before the hearing. It could have made a difference. A show of a sea of kilted men in the board room would also have been impressive.
In other words, Face Book doesn't change the world, neither does e mail letters.

Thorina ,

From what I understand , I think the young man did appear in front of the group ( school authorities ) which he was making his request in his family's tartan kilt ( which he had recently purchased ) with a Prince Charlie jacket , waistcoat , white shirt , black bow tie and proper hose and shoes , in order to give them an understanding of what he would wear .

The problem is that too much of society has lost it's common sense and become afraid of poltical correctness . You are " spot on " in mentioning everyone's fear of law suits , I most certainly agree . I also agree with your comments about pajamas and the rest of it .

I think that a kilt should be allowed as long as it's kept formal in the sense of the occasion which is what you are saying as well .

As I write this , I think to myself , Wow , three threads and many posts on this subject . It only goes to prove that there must be rules and exceptions to the rules in anything in society and in the middle does lay the common sense .

Father Bill actually expressed this similar viewpoint better than I , as his comments and his approach were totally based in the foundation of common sense .

Now , before anyone thinks I am praising Father Bill because of religion or becasue I know him , that is not the case . I do not know him and he does not know me and nothing religious is involved here . But he certainly brings common sense to the table .

It's just that Father Bill explained ( in his earlier post ) the most common sense way of handling these issues from his past expeience , which I think would take care of this issue .

At any rate , this topic on the young man's kilt has brought us to the question ..... are we going to cave to everything that is considered to be polictically correct ? Or , are we going to exercise common sense ?

Just saying .

[Father Bill]

Thanks go to so many who have been both kind and complimentary. I appreciate the collected wisdom of the GREAT(!) Rabble, and If I may interject once more, I'd like to take this thinking a step further.

There was more than one comment earlier that perhaps would make one wonder about the intelligence of school administrators. Believe me, although their intelligence is generally high, their wisdom is far from universally so.

In practice, the only critically important and truly useful role of any administrator in any system is to decide when the rules should be followed, and when there is "wiggle room." I arrived once as the new principal in a very, very unhappy school in a needy and sometimes tough community. The staff were no happier than the parents or kids. Among the legacies I discovered from my predecessor was a "staff handbook" consisting of forty-five pages, single-spaced, ten- or eleven-point font, 3/4" margins which admirably (?) covered every possible contingency and eventuality. It even had (ready for this?) half a page on how often and when staff should empty out the contents of their mailboxes!

It was not much of a challenge to cut it down to about fifteen pages, thirteen-point font, 1 1/4" margins. I attached a hand-written note to each copy before I put them in the blessed mailboxes. The note said "Please replace your staff manual with the attached pages. Thanks, Bill." By the way, you might guess that the actual topic of mailboxes wasn't even mentioned.

There never was a comment from any member of the staff about this, but there were sudden smiles and a high level of cooperation. Oddly enough, even student discipline problems dropped in the week following - you know - happy staff, happy kids; happy kids, happy parents; happy parents... happy principal!

It wasn't really tough to tame this rough and tumble school and community. Actually, I honestly loved the kids and their parents, and they knew it and returned it, and I was and still to this day am intensely proud of that wonderful staff. The skills, cohesion, cooperation, energy, joy... they were all off the deep edge of amazing.

Oddly, (maybe not) the same thing has worked in my new career with the church. The wardens and congregations are running the parish business successfully and skilfully leaving me with nothing much to do other than encourage them in all situations, and lead worship. I won't go a lot further lest I break the good (and wisely sparse) rules of this forum, but I would assure you that my theology aligns well with my leadership philosophies. It's not particularly judgemental or accusatory.

When I was a vice-principal, learning this stuff, one of my very prescient and wise principals told me that leadership (almost the opposite of management) isn't something you can reduce to a formula - it really and truly is magic.

Sadly, I would assume that the granite principal in question probably hasn't had a truly relaxed or happy laugh in a very long time and will soon burn himself out if the poor chap isn't already there. You don't put good managers into needy neighbourhoods; you put cheerful and proficient leaders there.

Oh - and the principal who preceded me? Went to government to assist in writing policies.

[madmacs]

I would hazard a guess that the crux of the problem probably comes not from a guy wearing a skirt, but from the fear that he might not be wearing something under it... And the potential complaints/lawsuits...

Something that doesnt seem to have been mentioned...

[Thorina]

I would hazard a guess that the crux of the problem probably comes not from a guy wearing a skirt, but from the fear that he might not be wearing something under it... And the potential complaints/lawsuits...

Something that doesnt seem to have been mentioned...

Which is terribly funny....considering that even suggesting such a thing in the direction of what a female has or doesn't have under her prom dress would be considered REALLY inappropriate.
Though....if I were the lad, I would not be so bold as to attend regimentally.

[Thorina]

There was more than one comment earlier that perhaps would make one wonder about the intelligence of school administrators. Believe me, although their intelligence is generally high, their wisdom is far from universally so.

I wasn't questioning their wisdom or intelligence; basic education was what I was directly questioning. You begin studying world history in 1st grade as it relates to culture and self identity. In 5th or 6th grade, you go into a more in depth study of world history and cultures. This repeats again in Jr High and High School at a deeper level.
No less than 3 times during a child's education in the K-12 system here in the states, you should have learned something about Scotland. If you retain NOTHING else from the study of Scotland....I would think the kilt would be the one thing that sticks.
It's rather embarrassing that someone who is in charge of many childrens' educations, seems to lack the basic knowledge that a 6th grader should have about the world around them.
A kilt is a male garment.
I can't honestly tell you how long I have known that little tid bit of knowledge, but it's been a very long time. Since childhood, I am certain of it. Good chance I've know it since 1st grade.

[creagdhubh]

Very, very interesting discussion thus far everyone, thanks for contributing!

Cheers,