SCA & RenFaires

[Deirachel]

Unless your persona is Baron or above or if you wear the white belt, then go for the kilt, it's easy to make and comfortable.

The "great kilt" is period. See above, where Woodsheal mentions the first description of the belted plaid in 1594. Period ends 1599, so you are covered. That's the great kilt, feile mor, belted plaid is the same thing. The 9 yards thing is modern, the clan kilt is modern.

These fabrics from Hancock Fabrics work rather well here in the south and the mud of Gulf Wars and what not:

http://www.hancockfabrics.com/Black-...VVviewprod.htm

http://www.hancockfabrics.com/Black-...VVviewprod.htm

http://www.hancockfabrics.com/Heathe...VVviewprod.htm

http://www.hancockfabrics.com/Gray-a...VVviewprod.htm

Unlike a number of the fantasist who think they are Garb Experts, the "Jacobite" shirt style (the tunic with the tie-neck thing) isn't.

Trust me (an ex- friendly shire-hood Chirurgeon), if you are a Heavy Weapons' fighter, going from armor to kilt is a GREAT way to cool down. And, heat related issues are the worst way to get taken out of the battle.

Q: How many Heralds does it take to change a light bulb?
A: You can't do that, it's metal on metal.

[Rathmir]

Re-read the thread. Leine ( a baggy shirt): I was reading another thread about period clothing the OP mentioned that the shirts were mid-thigh length. I have one linen shirt that barely reaches past my waist and a cotton/poly pirate shirt I picked up from an after Halloween sale that has crisscrossed strings at the neck and down 6 inches or so. I suppose the pirate shirt is like the "jacobite" shirt someone mentioned. Of the two shirts then, which to wear?

O.C. Richard said:

So the old dress consisted of a leine (large baggy shirt), ionar (short jacket with pleats around the bottom), crois (handwoven decorative waist sash), brat (mantle or cloak, often made of plaid wool, and often with a fringe all around), and pamputai(homemade sealskin or deerskin moccasins).

Maybe I'll just buy some material, fold it in half, sew up the sides, cut a whole for the neck, and add sleeves. If it reaches down to my knees then weave a sash from a couple strands of material for a crois. Skip the ionar because I can barely sew and I overheat rapidly, and find a way to make some pamputai. The pamputai sound a bit like some moccasins I made in Boy Scouts 20 years ago or so.

If one of my current shirts work for pre-1600AD, then I will buy some wool and wear a kilt. I can make a 2 inch wide belt and buckle easy enough. I am 42" at navel so was thinking of 5 yards of fabric. Any comments or corrections are greatly appreciated.

[Mike_Oettle]

Deirachel, those Hancock tartans look most unappetising!
Perhaps they are authentic to the period, but I have a suspicion that other colours were in use at the time, especially red.
As for your crack about heralds . . . no comment.
Regards,
Mike

[Mainer In Exile]

I recall back when I was burning myself out as a kingdoms submissions herald ("No, a lobster is not going to be mistaken for a lozenge!!!"), our principal kingdom herald and founder of our Gaelic-named shire wore his real-world clan tartan--as a great kilt. Since he was a professional historian by trade (and a Laurel, and a Pelican, and the principal herald!), nobody argued, although there was considerable tut-tutting among the period fashion mavens who sailed like stately galleons in their Elizabethan gowns 'round every event. I'm a simple Sassenach by lineage and choice of persona, so I steered well clear of any such discussions.

Allen

[Alan H]

In my experience with the Guilds that I've participated in, the degree of disinformation passed around is gigantic. Now, I have no experience with the SCA, but I'm constantly bemused by what I'm told in various Guild meetings. From arms to armor to "kilts" to footwear to gory details of etiquette (what side of your hat you're supposed to show a noble when you bow) and stuff like that...on and on and on... most of it is utter garbage with no basis in documented historical reality, whatsoever.

Fortunately, most of it gets ignored, most of the time. If you dress up up in something imitating something "old" and mouth homilies in a fake UK accent, and call everyone "my lord" and "my lady" you're good to go from what I can see.

[TheOfficialBren]

I have noticed that about SCA/Ren? Faires, too, Alan.

It's too bad that bad theatrics trumps legitimate education and turns people off who would otherwise be genuinely interested in learning about history.

[Fedgunner]

While I have never been involved with the SCA, I do dress as a highland "humbley" while working in the Scottish village at the ren-faire. A blue knit bonnet, a "brown watch" philabeg with a couple yards of more of the same tartan to mock up the look of great kilt.
( the weekend for the Scottish event can range from a rainy 60 degrees to an afternoon high pushing near 100. Being able to lose the upper part is great in the heat, and wrap around my wife in the cold)

For a shirt I wear a roughspun 2/3 sleave that does lace at the throat, but the lace is the same fabric as the rest of the shirt.
For shoes I cheat. I use Minnetonka moccasins in natural suede.

Not period perhaps, but just fine for a ren-faire.

[Downunder Kilt]

As Fedgunner says "fine for a ren faire", as a bit of fun and from what I can see, most of the attendees go there to have some fun, not trying to say "this and that" is was what was actually worn in a certain period. The thing that gripes me is the self proclaimed re-enactment groups/living history groups, who on their web sites claim that they they are trying to teach people of what actually went on in time frame that they allegedly portray. If fact by the SCA's own rulings, if something was documented for the first time as being worn/used at a certain date, you can use it in a time period up to 50 years before.

[Alan H]

I have noticed that about SCA/Ren? Faires, too, Alan.

It's too bad that bad theatrics trumps legitimate education and turns people off who would otherwise be genuinely interested in learning about history.

Well, yes and no. The way I see it, is if the gents put on a spanking great sword fight, everybody loves it and that's fun. If the Queen wanders around and bestows gifts upon the loyal subjects, then everybody loves it and that's great. If the Queens Guard marches by stomp, stomp... to the clash of weaponry and jankle of body armor, then everybody loves it and that's great.

"give the muggles what they want to see". That's GREAT! If it so happens that some muggles ask some questions, then do your best to give a correct and educated answer. If you don't know the answer, then say so. That's great! ALL of those things, the local Guilds around here do pretty well and lots of people love it. If it's presented as entertainment, then so what if it's not as spot-on accurate as it can be. You know back then people wore shoes with leather and wood soles made on lasts that didn't have right and left shoe styles. i'm not going to demand that My Lady Nightengale, who has horrible bunions, not to mention a completely destroyed set of ankle tendons, spend the entire day in something like that. I'm not going to demand that the lads doing live action swordplay MUST do it in the absolute finest replica weapon, perfect for the era and locale that they can get. For one thing, metallurgy now is light years ahead of where it was, then. Live action steel weapons now, are better than the "real" ones from 1570. These things are bluidy expensive...hundreds and hundreds of dollars. You can do live steel with the Hanwei things, but man those things bust a LOT and sometimes they bust and send fragments into the crowd. That's not so good, eh?

I'm not going to demand that the serving wenches wear the same clothes for three months before they come to the event so that they develop the historically correct degree of body odor.

What's not so great is when folks like this swear up and down that this is the REAL THING, that it's perfectly and completely accurate and attempt to pass it off as education. Unfortunately, around here, that happens a lot. Hopefully it doesn't happen everywhere.

Honest truth.... entertainment sells better than education ANY day, and I have NO problem whatsoever in understanding that when I step into a Guild role, I'm ENTERTAINING people.... and btw, maybe, some education might take place. maybe.

[TheOfficialBren]

"give the muggles what they want to see". That's GREAT! If it so happens that some muggles ask some questions, then do your best to give a correct and educated answer. If you don't know the answer, then say so. That's great!

What's not so great is when folks like this swear up and down that this is the REAL THING, that it's perfectly and completely accurate and attempt to pass it off as education. Unfortunately, around here, that happens a lot. Hopefully it doesn't happen everywhere.

Honest truth.... entertainment sells better than education ANY day, and I have NO problem whatsoever in understanding that when I step into a Guild role, I'm ENTERTAINING people.... and btw, maybe, some education might take place. maybe.

I have no problem with entertainment. I AM an entertainer by trade. I do think that it is a disservice to credible living historians when fantasists who have no real knowledge other than their personal opinion and an unrealistic view of history treat it as something that is like their personal possession. I've had a bad taste in my mouth about some of those groups, though, having seen some very poor displays in the past.

As far as the martial arts displays go, some are superb, some are crap. It really depends on the level of skill and the degree of knowledge the demonstrator has. If they have studied some of the period masters like Talhoffer, Lichtenauer, or Liberi then they are absolutely superb--on par with the greatest Eastern martial artists. If all they are relying on is "Braveheart," then...you get where I'm going with this (most Hollywood films totally get period martial arts wrong, especially depictions of Medieval Europe).

If you want a by-the-book, textbook demonstration then I recommend The ARMA. They are pretty spot-on with period demonstrations and none of the fantasy element. Strictly primary source material and no modern filter.

If you want a fun and entertaining afternoon with the kids then I recommend an SCA event.

Both have a place and fulfill their purpose in the end.

Different strokes for different folks.

:-)