Kilt belt loops?

[Domehead]

Perhaps this is a way to phrase it...
If your kilt was tailored to fit your very well (thus removing the need for a belt) then remove the accompanying loops and wear your belt in its intended manner, a decorative facade.

To retain said loops while wearing the facade over top simply as a means to reiterate one's expertise over another seems...this seems a bit insecure. As well, it may fail to convey that expertise.

Mr. Jock Scot is the "Spot the Lemon" Champion. If he thinks belt-over-loop a bit tart, it probably is.

[Jock Scot]

Perhaps this is a way to phrase it...
If your kilt was tailored to fit your very well (thus removing the need for a belt) then remove the accompanying loops and wear your belt in its intended manner, a decorative facade.

To retain said loops while wearing the facade over top simply as a means to reiterate one's expertise over another seems...this seems a bit insecure. As well, it may fail to convey that expertise.

Mr. Jock Scot is the "Spot the Lemon" Champion. If he thinks belt-over-loop a bit tart, it probably is.

Er well, belt loops are something beyond my ken. Do I think that belt loops are a sartorial no-no? Well no. But, I cannot understand having them and then choosing not to use them and also I don't understand having a three inch(?) belt loop and then using them(?) for a three quarter inch sporran strap. The whole idea of belt loops all seems rather unnecessary to me and does seem to complicate something that should be so simple, but if you want them, then who am I to comment.

[Domehead]

Understood

[Nathan]

Er well, belt loops are something beyond my ken. Do I think that belt loops are a sartorial no-no? Well no. But, I cannot understand having them and then choosing not to use them and also I don't understand having a three inch(?) belt loop and then using them(?) for a three quarter inch sporran strap. The whole idea of belt loops all seems rather unnecessary to me and does seem to complicate something that should be so simple, but if you want them, then who am I to comment.

I agree that having them at all is rather unnecessary. I got along fine for years without them. Now both of my kilts have them but that's kind of random because, as I mentioned before, they just seem to come standard from a lot of places now, and the shop that altered my kilt just went ahead and added them as a "bonus". I do find them useful for taming my kilt strap excess ends that had a tendancy to curl and flop about in the past.

I have also been told that because they are only on the back, using them for the waistbelt causes the fabric of the kilt to distort unevenly. I was told that they only got so large due to customer demand based on the erroneous view that they were for the dirk belt and that people who knew what they were doing should really only be using them for the sporran strap because having tartan loops over your belt was a no no. Besides, if they were meant for the waistbelt they would go all around the kilt to provide balance.

I'm simply sharing the views that have been passed along to me by kilt shop owners, pipers and fellow kilt enthusiasts over the years. A quick Google search confirmed that others hold this view and have published as much on various kilt forums however, that in and of itself, proves nothing.

Should we blame J. Charles Thompson for this? It seems many of his opinions are taken as gospel by many. I had never read his book or even heard of it before I joined this site, but I had certainly heard many of his opinions echoed many times over.

From where did he draw these conclusions? Was he a lone wolf? Why is his book so highly reviewed, well regarded and widely distributed? Is it for lack of another credible option?

[David Thorpe]

...Should we blame J. Charles Thompson for this? It seems many of his opinions are taken as gospel by many. I had never read his book or even heard of it before I joined this site, but I had certainly heard many of his opinions echoed many times over.

From where did he draw these conclusions? Was he a lone wolf? Why is his book so highly reviewed, well regarded and widely distributed? Is it for lack of another credible option?

If you had read his book, you would not consider blaming him for this controversy. His position was that the loops were not to be used for a belt, but for a sporran strap only.

His conclusions were drawn from several decades of experience as a regular kilt wearer of the decidedly traditional camp and an avid scholar in the field of traditional Highland dress.

I can think of several reasons why his little book is still popular and highly regarded even after 40-some-odd years. In many ways it still stands alone in its utility as a reference source, although the material in some areas is understandably dated.

It is well worth the price and a worthwhile read, IMHO.

[Nathan]

If you had read his book, you would not consider blaming him for this controversy. His position was that the loops were not to be used for a belt, but for a sporran strap only.

Exactly, but people here with equally impeccable kilting credentials are calling this view (that I was taught and held up to today)into question as the accepted norm. It is also my understanding (admittedly I didn't read it) that he is the source of the "white hose with formal wear" convention that so many here cast aspersions upon.

His conclusions were drawn from several decades of experience as a regular kilt wearer of the decidedly traditional camp and an avid scholar in the field of traditional Highland dress.

I can think of several reasons why his little book is still popular and highly regarded even after 40-some-odd years. In many ways it still stands alone in its utility as a reference source, although the material in some areas is understandably dated.

It is well worth the price and a worthwhile read, IMHO.

Although I've heard it said that because he's an American in the pre-internet era, he may have been mistaken on some of the details of how TCHD was worn in the Highlands. Shrug.

Perhaps "blame" is the wrong word. I'm just saying that I was taught one should NEVER put their kilt belt through the loops. I've also been told that this was Scotty Thompson's view as well. But Matt, Jock, Tobus, Kyle, Domehead and others here, Thompson notwithstanding, have added that wearing your loops under your belt would look more foolish than putting your belt through the loops.

So, to belabour the point, since I've been told that putting your kilt belt through those loops was big sartorial no no, I was wondering if Thompson alone was the source of this view.

I'm certainly not going to dismiss a book I haven't read out of hand.

[David Thorpe]

It is also my understanding (admittedly I didn't read it) that he is the source of the "white hose with formal wear" convention that so many here cast aspersions upon.

Actually, his recommendations for formal hose were Argyll, castellated and the like, but he did not express the current Xmarks revulsion toward white or off-white hose.

...Matt, Jock, Tobus, Kyle, Domehead and others here, Thompson notwithstanding, have added that wearing your loops under your belt would look more foolish than putting your belt through the loops.

And that position is far from the only instance of things about TCHD that don't make practical sense, as you yourself pointed out so well. My personal view is that the belt loops themselves make far less sense than not putting one's belt through them. I put 1" sporran strap loops on my kilts. Were I 50 pounds lighter, I might not need them, but that ship is unlikely to return to port anytime in the foreseeable future.

I would also point out that this is most definitely not the first time we have seen an absence of consensus here regarding a TCHD detail matter. We are a very diverse group. I find the wide variance in experience and opinion refreshing and enlightening, for the most part.

I'm certainly not going to dismiss a book I haven't read out of hand.

I can recommend it without reservation, regardless of the extent of one's kilting experience. I have bought several copies, which keep getting loaned out and not returned. I take that as a positive referral in its own right. The book is out of print, but usually available through several Amazon-connected dealers. There are several different editions, but the differences between them are minor.

[creagdhubh]

I have a copy of Thompson's book if anyone wants it. It came with a kilt I had ordered whilst in high school. I read it once back in 1995 and haven't looked at it since.

[Gaulv]

i have to admit i like the idea of belt loops and they way they look

[BCAC]

Precisely. If the kilt is well made to the wearer's exact measurments, there is simply no need for a belt unless the wearer wishes to wear one for purely decorative purposes, or if the wearer wishes to wear a dirk (thus requiring a dirk frog attached to the belt) with Highland evening attire.

Also, there has been much debate in the past on XMTS in regards to buttoning the last button on a waistcoat, more specifically a tweed waistcoat worn during the day. Some believe that the Highland tradition is to button all of the buttons to include the last button. I have seen this in a multitude of old photos of various Highland gentlemen, but I have also see it done the other way just as many times. Personally, I prefer to leave the last button on my tweed waistcoat(s) unbuttoned and I never button my jacket.

Kyle, I always try to look as if I know what is and what just is not done as regards to TCHD, but the day that I don't button the last button on my waistcoat will be a cold day in hell! Soley because I think it looks scruffy and I don't like looking scruffy.

I don't have belt loops put on my kilts (never seen the point) but, if I'm not wearing a waistcoat I will always wear a belt because to me if someone decides not to wear a belt it looks as if there is something missing (even like maybe he 'forgot' his belt!).

Everyone has their own personal way of doing things and happily, with all the so called rules and regulations and ways it "should be done", nothing is set in stone and there are no "kilt cops" (thankfully).