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  1. #21
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    There is alot of great information here and I appreciate everybody's input. I am in the process of registering my family's tartan and would like an actual swatch to submit with it along with a dedicated company to make the material and possibly the kilts when a McGahen orders. I have a "clan" page dedicated for the McGahen/McGahan name and our membership grows daily so I am really just wanting to get it setup to where we can start producing the tartan seeing that a bunch of them are asking if the desgin is available and I need examples of what it looks like other than the flat digital image. There are alot of personal opinions concern specific companies but as stated before they are just that, personal opinions. While I do respect those opinions and heed to some advice the best way to figure out what my personal preference is, is to experience it myself. I do realize that no company is going to take as much care to my family name as I am but it doesnt hurt to try and find one that trys as hard as they can to at least pretend they do. I am first generation born U.S. and both of my parents are from the island so believe me when I say I hold true to my heritage and know exactly where I come from. Again I appreciate everybody's input and hope I can decide on a dedicated company.
    Last edited by Priest; 14th November 14 at 12:12 PM.

  2. #22
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    BTW it's interesting to see a tartan I designed show up on the Scotweb site done up in Reproduction Colours. It looks beautiful!

    http://www.scotweb.co.uk/tartan/MacC...lter_range=413
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  3. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Fiddes View Post
    If a customer wishes to come to DC Dalgliesh with a Scotweb design, it counts as a Design Adaptation (rather than one in our systems) so it takes an expert team member real time to match and input that. That's a service we charge (a little) for, otherwise it would have to be paid for in effect by other customers. It's called being professional.
    This, I believe, was exactly the process my own "Leaf Peeper" tartan went through, last year, was it not, Nick?

    I had noticed the tartan design tool page ordinarily used Scotweb's "Glen Affric" pool of weavers, and defaulted to a 13oz fabric weight. We even discussed these things in a thread in the Scotweb sub-forum of this site. I knew I wanted a Dalgliesh product, so I specifically inquired about having Dalgliesh produce the tartan, and in their 15 ounce weight. Dalgliesh did a champion job of matching the colors to those in the "standard" pool of threads, that I worked with in the design tool. And without needing custom dyes. I then went a step further and had Dalgliesh produce the hand sewn kilt for me.

    Although steeper in cost than the machine sewn kilts I've purchased in mass-quantity produced fabrics (like Locharron's Buchanan, for example), the cost of my "Leaf Peeper" was right in line with what I had paid for two other short-run 8-yard hand sewn kilts that I had also had Dalgliesh produce for me, from pre-existing traditional tartan designs (a Buchanan Hunting in Ancient colors, and a Buchanan clan tartan, in "Reproduction" colors.)

    These three Dalgliesh kilts are hands down, my favorites among my growing collection. My "Leaf Peeper" particularly, has a special place for me, being my own design.
    KEN CORMACK
    Clan Buchanan
    U.S. Coast Guard, Retired
    Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, USA

  5. #24
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    3rd July 14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Fiddes View Post
    Oh, and by the way, on the 'plaid vs tartan' thing, .... as far as I'm aware, the terms are pretty interchangeable, there's no ultimate definition of tartan beyond its being a criss-cross pattern, and being here in the US right now I'm certainly hearing our product described as plaid far more than as tartan.

    But in fact on our web site we are talking about both, and using them consistently differently
    In the US, anything with both horizontal and vertical stripes are called plaid. They don't have to be symmetrical or consistent in any direction. Certainly that's been my observation over the last 4 decades or so.

    Whereas tartans are a specific subset of plaids, that are symmetrical (at least on the diagonal, and usually on the horizontal/vertical).

    I'm not sure if that fits the Scotweb usage, but I think it's what most Americans would understand (at least among those that even know of tartans )

    Americans only know the word plaid as a fabric pattern, and not as a shoulder sash. "Everybody knows" here that cowboys wear plaid shirts, but they aren't necessarily tartan patterns at all.

    Perhaps to a British ear it may sound strange to refer to tartans as plaids, but in the US it makes perfect sense that tartans are a specific type of plaid. I wonder if there is either a different word in Britain for non-symmetrical striped patterns, or perhaps there just aren't many non-tartan striped patterns?

  6. #25
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    Whilst most tartans are symmetic there are a number of old patterns that are asymmetric, Buchanan and Glenorchy being the two most common. In Britain, and probably elsewhere, they are known as asymmetric tartans.

    Notwithstanding Nick's comment, the term 'plaid' is not usually used here in the UK, or in Europe more widely, to mean tartan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grunthos View Post
    Whereas tartans are a specific subset of plaids, that are symmetrical (at least on the diagonal, and usually on the horizontal/vertical).

    Perhaps to a British ear it may sound strange to refer to tartans as plaids, but in the US it makes perfect sense that tartans are a specific type of plaid. I wonder if there is either a different word in Britain for non-symmetrical striped patterns, or perhaps there just aren't many non-tartan striped patterns?

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    Whilst most tartans are symmetic there are a number of old patterns that are asymmetric, Buchanan...
    About Buchanan, is your knowledge consistent with the account given in Setts, that Logan 1831 and Smibert 1850 give a symmetric count, and that the asymmetric version first appears in the McIan 1845 illustration, which also shows an irregular Robertson?

    Were Wilson (or anyone else) weaving a symmetric Buchanan in the early 19th century?
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  8. #27
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    My research leads me to conclude that Smibert and Stewart got it wrong because they followed Logan's count which Wilsons themselves described as very defective. There is no evidence of a symmetrical setting before Smibert's 1850 misinterpretation of Logan's scale. I've discuss the orgins and errors in this paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    About Buchanan, is your knowledge consistent with the account given in Setts, that Logan 1831 and Smibert 1850 give a symmetric count, and that the asymmetric version first appears in the McIan 1845 illustration, which also shows an irregular Robertson?

    Were Wilson (or anyone else) weaving a symmetric Buchanan in the early 19th century?

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by figheadair View Post
    Whilst most tartans are symmetic there are a number of old patterns that are asymmetric, Buchanan and Glenorchy being the two most common. In Britain, and probably elsewhere, they are known as asymmetric tartans.
    Yes, they are asymmetric on the horizontal and vertical, in that the sequence repeats but does not reverse. That's what most people mean when using the term "asymmetrical" for these.

    But the horizontal sequence is the same as the vertical sequence, making them symmetrical on the diagonal. Nobody even questions whether the horizontal and vertical sequences are the same or not; they always are in tartans.

    In the U.S., there are lots of variations in fabric patterns where the horizontal sequence is not the same as the vertical sequence at all (and may not even be the same colors let alone order). These get referred to in the US as "plaid", but not "tartan".

    Notwithstanding Nick's comment, the term 'plaid' is not usually used here in the UK, or in Europe more widely, to mean tartan.
    Interesting. For my curiosity, what would "plaid" be used for, and what term would be used for a fabric pattern with different sequences in the horizontal versus vertical?

    I find it interesting how words change and mutate over time and distance.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunthos View Post
    Yes, they are asymmetric on the horizontal and vertical, in that the sequence repeats but does not reverse. That's what most people mean when using the term "asymmetrical" for these.

    But the horizontal sequence is the same as the vertical sequence, making them symmetrical on the diagonal. Nobody even questions whether the horizontal and vertical sequences are the same or not; they always are in tartans.
    Actually that's not quite the case. It's unusual but there are examples of 18th and early 19th century tartans that have a different warp and weft.

    Interesting. For my curiosity, what would "plaid" be used for, and what term would be used for a fabric pattern with different sequences in the horizontal versus vertical?

    I find it interesting how words change and mutate over time and distance.
    Plaid is usually used to refer to the traditional item of clothing i.e. belted plaid, shoulder plaid, fly plaid, piper's plaid.

    A multi-striped cloth having a different arrangement in the warp and weft is referred to in a number of different ways. The exact term would depend on a number of things such as the amount of difference and who one asked. Some might simply call it 'checked', others might use the term Bumbee Tartan meaning not a proper tartan. Some people might not even notice the difference and would simply call a piece tartan.

  11. #30
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    I very much wished to get the Scottish Wildcat Tartan woven by either Knockando or Dalgliesh due to my having visited both of the mills on this past summer trip to Scotland. Knockando turned down the job. I tried messaging Nick through XMTS to ask him about it and I never got an answer. To this day, I STILL don't have an answer. After a couple of weeks wait for Nick to get back to me, I inquired through ScotWeb as to whether Dalgliesh would be interested in the job. It took a lot of prodding to get an answer out of Scotweb, but finally I did get an e-mail from "Hamish" at Scotweb that they would not be able to tell me, within the span of two weeks, whether Dalgliesh was even "interested" in the job. -- Not whether they could produce the stuff, but whether they could tell me if they were "interested". This boggles my mind, I mean, it's the matter of a phone call or a letter, yes?

    It seemed clear to me that they simply didn't want Dalgliesh to get the work.

    So we set upon a long process of finding mills to work with. In fact, we may wind up with Dalgliesh in the end, but only because Barb. T. has a direct connection with someone at the Dalgliesh mill. If we had to go through Nick or Scotweb, the work would obviously never get done.

    When I was there this past summer, while I thoroughly enjoyed seeing the place, it was clear that the double-wide looms had not operated in quite some time. There are 6-8 of them in the building and only two were threaded. The only loom that showed signs of current work was the single-width loom. The people I met were lovely, I would be very happy if they got work and were able to continue in the business, but at this point I'm rather less than impressed. I read lots of fancy writing about "saving" the mill and so on, which has gone of for about two years, now, and I see a nifty new website. All well and good, but until new looms go in and orders get processed and cloth gets produced and kilts get made, it's all talk. BTW, the looms in the current building, as lovely as they are, are relicts of another age. They're historical objects, now....not production looms for a business serious about producing volumes of fabric..

    That's rather "hard" but it's the truth as I see it. Not that I know whole, whole lot, but there's my two cents. Personally, I'd love to see the company "make it".

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