Bonnets and badges at Burns dinners.

[MacCathmhaoil]

Shift your chairs over, you'll need to make a wee bit of space for me as well! Puzzled by some of the looks that I've seen "achieved" over the years. I'm a bit curious are there no military uniform regulations that prohibit the mixing of military uniform and civilian attire at non-military functions? I do know that there are here in the Canadian military.

[rmccool]

I can't understand the part about wearing headgear indoors, but the wearing of decorations may be a cultural distinction. I can't profess any great expertise in Scottish and UK contemporary culture, but the impression I've formed from a variety of sources is that there is more separation or distinction between military and civilian identities there than in the US. In the US, military service holds a fairly special place in our collective consciousness. Among many who've served, there's a desire to indicate one's service in various ways. From bumper stickers and custom vinyl decals on vehicles and unit patches on baseball caps to shirts and jackets blazoned with the names and seals of our branches of service, we Americans who've served in the military - even if only for a single term of service - often wear identifying clothing, jewelry, etc. denoting that service at least semi-regularly for the rest of our lives. It isn't so much about achieving personal recognition (although there's certainly some of that in the equation) as it is about a generalized sense of patriotism and pride.

We don't generally do regimental ties, so the options for highlighting one's service while wearing semi-formal or formal attire, Highland or otherwise, are limited. I suspect that decorations may be, or be becoming, our equivalent of regimental ties.

[Taskr]

I think it was a great question, Jock, and the responses interesting and educational as regards quirks and customs. The Canadian reference for the wearing of Decorations is here. It will either show or auto download a .pdf Decorations are allowed for wear with civilian attire for certain events, and where medals are indicated. For example, my spouse asked I go kited to a Gala on Saturday. Back tie with decorations is encouraged, so I will wear my miniatures (as I would on tux or mess dress). If I went kilted, or even in trousers, to a military parade I might wear my large medals on my Crail or suit jacket. Basically, if medals and decorations are expected, they are worn. If not indicted on the invitation or advert, then no. Yet we do see them from time to time where they'd not be expected, and that is from - i think- a misunderstanding that Formal means medals, which is not correct. I've not seen scot head dress on anyone other than pipers at events.

[OC Richard]

Among many who've served, there's a desire to indicate one's service in various ways. From bumper stickers and custom vinyl decals on vehicles and unit patches on baseball caps to shirts and jackets blazoned with the names and seals of our branches of service, we Americans who've served in the military - even if only for a single term of service - often wear identifying clothing, jewelry, etc. denoting that service at least semi-regularly for the rest of our lives...

We don't generally do regimental ties, so the options for highlighting one's service while wearing semi-formal or formal attire, Highland or otherwise, are limited. I suspect that decorations may be, or be becoming, our equivalent of regimental ties.

Yes I think there's truth there. I hadn't thought about it in that way, but it seems to be similar to the UK/USA divide that often crops up on the internet regarding the attitudes concerning the professions of law enforcement and firefighting. I don't know if I can adequately put it into words, but a very simplified summation of it might be that in the UK military service and the professions of law enforcement and firefighting are considered jobs while here they are considered brotherhoods.

The reason I and many people I know have to deal with this issue that we, though not firefighters, play in a Fire Department Pipe Band. In the UK it's common and considered the norm, but here membership in Police and Fire Department pipe bands is usually determined by who signs one's paycheck, not one's musical abilities. The difference in attitude is sometimes reflected in the band names: ________ Police Pipe Band (in the UK) v _____________ Firefighters Pipe Band (in the USA). The former might have only a few actual Police officers in the ranks, the latter excludes non-firefighters.

A fellow in our pipe band, ex-Royal Marines, has said that he finds it odd the way that here police and firefighters call those not in these professions "civilians". He told a firefighter in our band "You're a civilian! You're not in the military." But that's not how it is here; police and firefighters do not consider themselves civilians, but a brotherhood apart.

[macwilkin]

Thanks for the replies chaps and I understand instantly the decoration mindset described for significant military events/General's/Admiral's birthdays, whatever . But I am a bit stuck on understanding why wear military decorations for one of the most un-military civilians that ever walked this earth one Mr R Burns who is not even part of anyone's nation other than Scotland. OK I can see the argument that Mr Burn's words have spread across the world, but why the military connection with decorations being worn?

Also, looking at the current batch of Burns night pictures posted here the glengarry outnumbers the balmoral by many times, is this I wonder, part of the civilian/ military thinking that shows itself by the wearing of decorations? I am really not criticising or wanting to cause offence, but I am trying to get to grips with the thinking that is very different to how most of us think here. Let me stress that I am not talking about one mode of thinking is better than the other, but different they are.

Just a wee reminder that Burns himself was a soldier, a ranker in the Dumfries Volunteers, and from what noted Burnsian scholars have determined, a devoted member of the unit. He served in the months before his death, and was very active on the unit committee. While originally sympathetic to the French Revolution, after the Reign of Terror and the potential threat of French invasion, Burns cast his lot with others who formed a home-guard style local defence force, the Volunteer movement. Members of the various volunteer units even formed a guard of honour at Burns' funeral, and fired a volley over his grave.

It should also be pointed out that the first Burns Supper was in fact a "military" affair, when members of the Argyll militia gathered at Burns' house soon after his death in tribute to him -- the residence had ironically been turned into an ale house! <grin> If I remember correctly (and I'll verify this with Mr. Hugh Douglas's excellent history of Burns Suppers at home tonight) that it was the sergeant's mess that held this first Burns Supper in 1799 or 1801, long before any Burns Club had formed.

I think the observations of this being a diaspora trend are spot-on. Burns Suppers simply tend to be more a "do" outwith Scotland; for many Caledonian/St. Andrew's Societies, it's their flagship event. In my increasing dotage, I prefer the more "traditional" Burns Supper, but I see nothing wrong with the big "dos" either. I'm more concerned with how much the programme focuses on the works of Burns, rather than just a "Scottish" dinner that pays lip-service to him. But that's my 'twa bob'.

T.

[The Wizard of BC]

I'm going to attempt to make an observation here that may go a little way into answering Jock's question.

Now, please understand that this is coming from someone who was born and raised in the US and who served in the US Military during the period from the end of Viet-Nam to the Gulf War.

I now reside in Victoria, BC Canada. I had been up here for four years when the twin towers came down. Like much of the world I saw it only on TV.

The last time I was a full time resident of the US, we in the military, did not talk or display anything that denoted our service in the Military. The specter of Viet-Nam was still with the nation. I would not call it a feeling of shame, more a feeling of "we were caught in something we do not brag about".

There was a great respect among VN vets but it was different from that among the vets of WWII.

Then, during my visits back to the US, I began to notice a very distinct change. It started with the national feeling towards those returning from service in the Middle East. Retuning Vets were greeted with applause as they came though airports. They began to be cheered and they we sought out for handshakes.
This may have been a backlash from those days when vets were spit upon at the airport.

It probably took a while to catch on and many Americans may not have noticed it, but I did seeing it from the outside. I began to be asked about my Viet-Nam service. I was given a gift of a hat saying "Viet-Nam Vet" during one of my visits and encouraged to wear it.

Those outside the US may not understand the impact that the events since 9-11 have had on the American national consciousness. Firefighters and Police are seen as heroes now, where before 9-11 they were seen as unsung public servants.

I have noticed that it is now a matter of National pride in the US to show, and be proud, of your service. Be it military, police, firefighter or anyone else who puts on a uniform to go to work.

I guess I notice these symbols of service and symbols of National pride because I missed the period when it became traditional to show them. Perhaps they stand out simply because it is so different from my days.

As others have noted, the kilt in the US, is closely associated with uniforms. Military and Pipe band uniforms are the only time most Americans see a kilt. They also see that it is not a real uniform. One worn as part of your service. It is special occasion wear with a military flare. I can't really fault anyone for making the leap from a Pipe or Drum Major in full rig to wearing a kilt with the symbols of their own service.

So to address your question directly Jock. It's an American thing. I doubt you can, or ever will, understand it as you do not live there and have not experienced it from within that culture.
It will seem as strange to you Jock as it does to me now. But I can assure you that it is real.

[Glen]

In this part of the woods, Burns Suppers are mainly formal events, with the pipe band in dress uniforms wearing full size medals, and guests in mess kits with miniatures or black tie, again with miniatures; however, many guests will wear lesser forms of dress down to blue jeans (western formal).

As for the diaspora, four and a half Canadians describe themselves a Scottish, some for generations here; Scots marring Scots, marring Scots.

Burns used to be taught here in school in 'English'...

[Glen]

The Canadian reference for the wearing of Decorations is here.

As can be seen, the guide describes "Orders, Decorations and Medals." Those three often get lumped together as decorations or medals, and although orders and decorations may have a chest insignia, the three components are all different...

[Liam]

In this part of the woods, Burns Suppers are mainly formal events, with the pipe band in dress uniforms wearing full size medals, and guests in mess kits with miniatures or black tie, again with miniatures; however, many guests will wear lesser forms of dress down to blue jeans (western formal).

As for the diaspora, four and a half Canadians describe themselves a Scottish, some for generations here; Scots marring Scots, marring Scots.

Burns used to be taught here in school in 'English'...

Glen.... Living down the QE2 from you, the only Burns supper where it would be appropriate to display one's medals or other such decorations would be if the Burns supper organizers had some military affiliation.
Approximately 15% of Canadians claim to have Scottish ancestry, but I for example would never refer to myself as Scottish, I am Canadian.
And yes, Burns was part of my Literary education in Saskatchewan. I can still recite by heart "Red, Red Rose".

Slainte

[Father Bill]

My love, she has a red, red nose
She starts to honk in June.
But though she blows and blows and blows,
She never blows a tune.

Sorry!