Tartan Types and Purposes:

[Jimmy Carbomb]

You bet ya buddy!!!

It usually takes about five minutes to understand what the drunk says through his slurs though!

If you're not the size of Rhino, Rigger or Hank... it's always good to have humor or REAL fast legs!

[Xcop]

Jimmy, thanks for the information.

avid

[macwilkin]

Pardon me for being the historian in this post, but it is what I do for a living :

The Black Watch (The Royal Highland Regiment) were not in Ireland during the time of the Easter Rebellion in 1916, nor did they take place in operations against the rebels in the GPO in Dublin. There were elements of the Royal Artillery, the Sherwood Foresters Regiment, and some Irish units, like the Dublin & Munster Fusiliers, but to my knowledge, there were no Scottish Regiments deployed at that time. The Argylls, the KSOB's and other regiments did go to Ireland during the Anglo-Irish War of 1919-1922, but there were many English home county regiments, like the Sherwoods, the Essex, etc., as well as Irish regiments, that served.

The Ulster Volunteer (Unionist) Forces, the UVF, weren't even in Ireland in 1916 -- most of them enlisted in the Irish Regiments and went to the Somme with the 36th (Ulster) Division which got chopped to pieces on the first day of the Somme, 1 July 1916, along with the 16th (Irish) Division, which was made up of Southern Irishmen, including some Nationalist Volunteers who supported the Home Rule politician John Redmond.

The Black & Tans were not connected to the Black Watch in any way -- they were a special unit created by the British Goverment of out-of-work other-ranks (enlisted men) to assist the Royal Irish Constabulary in the aforementioned Anglo-Irish War, along with the Auxillaries, or Auxies, who were made up of former Officers. It should be stated here that these units were NOT part of the Regular British Army, but attached to the RIC, so they were essentially para-military police.

I honestly have never heard any of this about the Irish being "anti-Black Watch tartan" before. I have walked into a very Irish pub in St. Louis in a Black Watch tartan and never heard any of this, and this pub is a hang-out for the NORAID and other pro-Republican groups. Even if it is true, someone needs to do some reading about the history of the Black Watch -- it was originally formed to police the Highlands, not Ireland. The Watch has been to Ulster in recent times, but so have a lot of other units. And I would say that the Maroon Beret of the Paras would be far more unpopular than a BW kilt.

Now, as to Saffron Kilts: this is not just a "Northern"/"Ulster" thing: The Republic of Ireland's Air Force maintains a Pipe Band that wears a saffron kilt:

http://www.iacpb.org/home.htm

Pretty sharp uniform. I believe the "Rangers" in the Irish Army wear a saffron kilt as well. I even think there are some AOH bands that wear them.

The Saffron kilt was developed for the Irish Regiments of the British Army before the Republic gots its independence (like the aforementioned Dublin & Munster Fusiliers), but survives today in the Royal Irish Regiment, Royal Irish Fuisiliers, etc., predominately Ulster units -- but few realise how many Southern Irishmen still continue to join the British Army -- over 80,000 in the Second World War alone.

Most of the Southern Irish folks I have met have never been "anti-Scottish" or even "anti-English".

Cheers!

T.

[Casey]

Jimmy,

A question/observation.

I recently read a book on Scottish history which indicated that the registration of tartan came with industrialization. Prior, when it was a cottage industry, people wore what ever they wanted and in some cases the louder the better.

Comments?

Casey

[Freelander Sporrano]

If anyone is interested you can read more about the black watch in the tread "Black watch" in the off topic section...Theres a lot of interesting information there I recomend it.

[bubba]

Casey, as I recall, the number of colors in tartans before the registrations and the prohibition were dependent on wealth and social standing. The richer and more prominent you were the more colorful the plaid.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Jimmy,

A question/observation.

I recently read a book on Scottish history which indicated that the registration of tartan came with industrialization. Prior, when it was a cottage industry, people wore what ever they wanted and in some cases the louder the better.

Comments?

Casey

Sure Case...

It's hard to register when there's no means of recording... or want for that matter. All the current information has been massed relatively recently. I ALWAYS use the two Authorities on Tartans when giving out information.

Now, as far a people wearing whatever they wanted... that's a new one on me! Makes sense to some degree though. The tartans have their place with families, clans, regiments, districts, etc. There's no way to make everyone abide by standards! Look at pictures of the soldiers in the Civil War here in the USA.

As always, there will be books and stories written that completely negate anything else prior. It's a lot like those monthly doctor reports that say sugar is good... then sugar is bad... high fat is good... high fat is bad... etc!

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Pardon me for being the historian in this post, but it is what I do for a living :

ARE YOU KIDDING! We LOVE it when you post this stuff! There's been a TON of background on items that I've really enjoyed.

The Black Watch (The Royal Highland Regiment) were not in Ireland during the time of the Easter Rebellion in 1916, nor did they take place in operations against the rebels in the GPO in Dublin.

For the record on this one, the information comes from Michael Collins' journal, and the records from Tomas O'Cleirigh. Also had a great grandfather that was in that "scuffle". It's always nice to read about it from all sides so that everyone can be completely boggled!

The Ulster Volunteer (Unionist) Forces, the UVF, weren't even in Ireland in 1916...

Yup. My brief writing didn't intend to make it sound like that. It's hard to keep it brief sometimes as words run together. Wasn't much of a need for them yet, now was there?!

The Black & Tans were not connected to the Black Watch in any way... but attached to the RIC, so they were essentially para-military police.

Yup. I sure I hope that I didn't say that accidentally! Great stories during the early "troubles" days about the skirmishes with the locals and the Black & Tans.

I honestly have never heard any of this about the Irish being "anti-Black Watch tartan" before.

Lucky guy! Still... consider not wearing it in an Irish Pub in Boston, or the Republic. This I've seen first hand. Not nice!

Now, as to Saffron Kilts: this is not just a "Northern"/"Ulster" thing.

Yup. Barely. Again, the perspective that I often post comes from the attitude of the south. They have LONG memories there! I'm the FIRST to admit that the information is a bit jaded by the perspective of heritage and connections. My family is from Armagh. Nuff said to those who know.

Most of the Southern Irish folks I have met have never been "anti-Scottish" or even "anti-English".

And vice versa. Atleast within the last 13 years anyway. Only when the "troubles" flare-up during the marches, the raids or the election suspensions does it show its ugly roots.

I'm just lucky to visit the island often, and live in the city with the largest Irish population outside of Ireland. I'm also privy to dissidents and exiles. I take MANY of their renditions of history with a grain of salt, but then I do the same with that which is recorded elsewhere. It's a fine duty to search-out and determine the most possible truth in the recounts, ain't it? But then, I'm writing back to a VERY smart and educated historian whose opinions and information I deeply respect! Lord know you have to do this all the time!

Sorry if there was any confusion in the post that we're talking about. It was a "Reader's Digest" version of a LONG story! For Republican history , we would need to create a whole new website just to hold all the debates. They're AWFULLY DEEP.

[Jimmy Carbomb]

Before I forget...

If I EVER post with a political slant, PLEASE forgive me and let me know. This is NOT the place for such things from me.

I try to proof-read all posts so that I don't go that route. Information and sources only.

Ever read a Soviet "World History" book from their schools in the 1970's and 1980's? If you can get your hands on a "translated version", it's WELL worth your time! They make more claims than Al Gore.

And now... back to the subject at hand...

[macwilkin]

Jimmy, I'll shout you a drink, anyday.

I put the comment about the "Black Watch" & the "Black & Tans" in there because I have heard this before...most recently from a fellow at my church (oddly enough, it's an Episcopal Church), who is very pro-Fenian, IRA, etc. I set him straight on that PDQ, that the BW and the Black & Tans were not the same thing.

Collins may have been thinking of the Argylls -- I know that the story that the jewel of the film "The Quiet Man" is based on, "Green Rashes", has a character in it who is an officer in the A & S.

Irish history is very fascinating -- and it should always be studied with an objective and jaundiced eye, because as you state, there is a lot of myth & legend in there as well.

And the same goes wi' me as far as political postings -- I come from a long line of Ulser & Scottish Presbyterians, so I usually tend to bleed "orange and blue" instead of "green" - but, on the same token, I follow Burns's philosphy "...that man to man, the world o'er, shall brithers be for a' that."

Cheers, Jimmy, and Good on ya!

T.