Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?

[Downunder Kilt]

We have been through all this on so many occasions that the circle closes then opens back on itself, then closes again.
Can we agree on a couple of things?
That the kilt is the national dress of Scotland.
That there is no nationality of Scot/Whatever, African/Whatever, Irish/Whatever (If you have dual citizenship then perhaps you can be Whatever/whatever)
That, if you are invited to an event where you are required to wear your national dress that you would wear the dress of the country of which you are a citizen.
That there is a difference between being the national of a country to having a cultural connection to that country
I think every person in the world can hypenate the cultural heritage of themeselves if the cared to.

No-one has ever stated that you cannot wear a kilt if you want to. Why do so many seem to feel that they have to prove "their right to " when asked.
The original OP asked the opinion of those in Scotland their opinion on a subject. Then tons of posters felt that they had to prove their right to wear a kilt or celebrate their Scottish heritage. Again, no-one says they cant wear a kilt or celebrate their heritage.
Some don't understand why they want to, Ok, I don't understand why other nationalities do certain things, so I ask, sometimes I understand, sometimes I don't

[TheOfficialBren]

::dead::

Can we please close this thread and leave it be? The OP hasn't been on here in quite a while.
All that ends up happening is hurtful statements made on both sides.

Live and let live.

[Singlemalt]

If we want to drop the subject I am fine with that but please don't think I am in any way "hurt". I disagree with Jock and Phil but I enjoy the exchange of ideas and points of view. I realize that I am unlikely to change their minds but on the other hand I just went and put on a kilt for dinner and I don't require their permission to do so or to feel good about it.

[CMcG]

...
But when asked "am I a Scot or a person with Scots ancestry?" I think the question is odd. I am a diaspora Gael. A Highland Scot. A Canadian Scot. A Scottish Canadian... whatever... I'm a Scot in the same way a Siamese cat is a siamese cat even if it's never been to Thailand... Actually much moreso since I grew up immersed in the names, music, language, dance, food and culture that was brought with those Highlanders...

With the greatest of respect Nathan. The only difference as far as I can see between Phil and you Nathan is that Phil is a Scot and you are a Canadian with Scots ancestry, in other words, you are a Canadian. And that is a distinction that is a world apart as far as general Scots thinking goes.

I find it interesting that, for some Scots, a person's identity is so essentialist and based on geo-political definitions. As I discovered earlier in this thread, this could have something to do with the current political climate in Scotland, which is not an allowable subject for discussion on this forum, but may actually provide a lot of context for those things that we can discuss...

I've probably offered the following anecdote before, but it is still relevant as an example of a different approach to this issue of ethnicity, citizenship, and identity. My girlfriend is Chinese-Canadian. When we spent a year abroad on exchange to the Chinese University of Hong Kong, the locals were always asking her where she was from and what her nationality was. At first she replied, "Canadian," but was typically confronted with confusion because of her ethnicity; the locals wouldn't accept that she was just Canadian, because she is also Chinese.

Eventually, she learned to say that she is wàhkìuh (華橋), which is a poetic way of saying "overseas Chinese" that recognizes both heritage and citizenship. This way of thinking has been of some not inconsequential benefit to China. From the time when China overthrew the last imperial dynasty in 1911, till the current international rise of China as an economic power, the Chinese diaspora has been a source of strength and support. That is perhaps one reason to foster an understanding of hybrid identity amongst overseas Scots, as 2014 is just around the corner...

Incidentally, though, it is not just the overseas Chinese or Scots who maintain a hybrid identity in the diaspora, but rather many groups who live in the multi-ethnic, multicultural New World continue to recognize both their heritage and their citizenship. In Canada, it is not only encouraged, but also legislated and celebrated; our national identity IS multicultural. The US, Australia, etc all do it a bit differently, but I think there is a commonality in the ability and desire to balance both heritage and citizenship.

Hopefully this explains part of why many kilted members of the Scottish diaspora feel hurt or offended when people who currently live in Scotland deny their Scottishness. I can understand an essentialist viewpoint towards identity based on citizenship, especially in a nation that yearns to be able to issue a passport that can claim "Scot" as a nationality. But it doesn't seem particularly beneficial in this situation and it elides many layers of history, culture, and ethnicity.



The question that started this whole thread was about the Scottish outlook on kilted Americans and we have expanded that include their outlook on others as well. Some Scots like people who reside outside Scotland wearing the kilt, some don't, others are indifferent. It is important for diasporic kilt wearing Scots -- or even non-Scottish kilt wearers -- to be informed about these outlooks, but it needn't affect one's own identity or practices; take it with a grain of salt and an eye to respecting the importance of the kilt to some residents of Scotland as a national symbol.

Just because someone is a Scottish-Canadian (or Scottish-American etc) doesn't make them a non-Scot, nor does it give them any less "right" to wear the kilt. In fact, even non-Scots are free to be kilted. At least until Scotland decides to try and enforce some sort of international legal control of the kilt...

[TheOfficialBren]

Other people have expressed that they were hurt, Singlemalt.

Colin, well-stated.

[Jock Scot]

On the specific point of Scottish politics in general, past and present Colin . I really and genuinely think that you are drawing the wrong conclusions as far as the topic in this thread. It has nothing whatsoever to do with politics.

[CMcG]

On the specific point of Scottish politics in general, past and present Colin . I really and genuinely think that you are drawing the wrong conclusions as far as the topic in this thread. It has nothing whatsoever to do with politics.

I'll take your word for it, Jock. We can't really talk about that here anyway

[kilted scholar]

My observation - a purely personal and limited one - is that the attitude to which reference has been made is not peculiar to some in Scotland but is also evident in different contexts in the UK as a whole. In recent years a number of members of the England cricket team have been born and raised in South Africa. They have British parents, British passports and according to the regulations governing qualification for membership of national teams they are fully and properly qualified, by birth to British parents and residence, to play cricket for England. Nevertheless, the cry has gone up that these individuals are not English but South African and so should not be selected for the national team (for which, incidentally, a good number of Scots have played, as well as Welshmen).

I have wondered myself about the underlying assumptions that inform this attitude, and what causes them. I have wondered as to whether and how far it may be influenced by a revulsion against the fanatical commitments to race and ethnicity that erupted some time ago in the twentieth century in Europe. (I refer to the general attitude not to its particular expressions in individual cases.) On the other hand it admittedly contrasts with the UK government's determination to maintain the wishes of the Falkland Islanders on the grounds of their identification as British. So there are factors at work in both directions. Incidentally, these are intended as explanatory comments rather than political ones.

The remarks about the cricketers and similar ones expressed on this forum puzzle me. In terms of the latter, it almost beggars belief that a recent immigrant from anywhere (legal or illegal) is a Scot, whereas an emigrant (Hamish MacPorridge) is an American, Canadian or other who cannot possibly be regarded as a Scot. The attitude does exist -as we know - but it seems to me to border on nonsense.

[Mael Coluim]

I am curious to how folks from Scotland perceive kilt wearing Americans? My family line on my fathers side moved to America in the late 1700's and the late 1800's from Scotland, Ireland and Nova Scotia. My mothers line from Switzerland, Germany and England in the 1800's. Do Scots look down on someone like me that wears a Kilt for occasions and is not 100% Scottish and/or not born and raised in the UK?

The thread was started 26 NOV 2012. The OP has not signed on to the Forum since 8 DEC 2012; one day over three months from today.

He has asked how Scots (a native or inhabitant of Scotland) 'view Americans or “not 100% Scottish and/or not born and raised in the UK” who wears a kilt.' We have heard from our Scot brethren and many more not of that nationality. Everyone is entitled to do their opinion; are they not?

If other opinions bother you and you feel the thread has run its course, (as for me it ran its course on the first post) you best recourse is not to post on it.

As long as all abide by the Rules there is no need to close the thread. If you feel a Rule is violated you can report it with the Rule that you believe has been violated. But the best course of action with threads like these is to ignore them and they drift away to oblivion.

Remember in signing on to this forum each of us agreed to
“…. to conduct ourselves as the Ladies and Gentlemen of X Marks.” This site has always been a place where our members treat each other in a polite and respectful, open and honest manner at all times.

Thank you!

[ThistleDown]

On the specific point of Scottish politics in general, past and present Colin . I really and genuinely think that you are drawing the wrong conclusions as far as the topic in this thread. It has nothing whatsoever to do with politics.

I agree.