Too Traditional?

[creagdhubh]

That's a very valid point, Tobus. It is within living memory (something like 2009!) that the members of this forum were criticising the wearing of patterned shirts and now, because of a few current photos taken in Scotland folks are on-line saying they have always worn them.

Most of the photos on XMarks are of members airing their newly-acquired garb or of some military chaps or gentry from long ago. The latter are valuable bits of history, but they mustn't be taken as examples of how the kilt-wearing tradition is interpreted today -- in Scotland.

The other photos are very difficult to deal with because critiquing them again and again is seen as awfully petty to us. All too often we see them as costumish but hesitate telling you why because the response invariably has to do with claims of personal style. (For example, you look good in them, but spats without the rest of the band uniform are seen as costume to us.) If you wear a Balmoral and are not in the party that is wearing bonnets, then you've missed a lesson along the way, but that's okay because now you've got it. The bonnet becomes costume, though, when it is worn after the jacket has been removed -- if it looks like costume. The stick is a very useful tool and the test of its "costume" nature may be whether or not you use it when you are not wearing a kilt.

I agree wholeheartedly that good photos are better than words, but where will we find the photos that describe the details of the previous paragraph?

Well put Rex, though there are certain areas of which 'I'll agree to disagree' with you.

It is in my best opinion, that our own Sandy MacLean (JSFMACLJR) has successfully pulled off (quite effectively too, I might add) the wearing of the Balmoral bonnet without a tweed 'Argyll' jacket of some sort, and actually has worn his bonnet without wearing Highland dress at all. I recall Sandy posting a photo of this on the forum, as I know I have seen it before. Sandy has also used his cromach whilst not wearing Highland dress - the same photo I believe - and the context was indeed appropriate.

Perhaps he'll chime in a wee bit later.

I have used my cromach at various times whilst wearing blue jeans and wellys in the hills surrounding Newtonmore and Laggan. And even though it has seen more use here in the States, it has been thoroughly 'broken in' from whence it was made.

Cheers,

[ThistleDown]

Well put Rex, though there are certain areas of which 'I'll agree to disagree' with you.

It is in my best opinion, that our own Sandy MacLean (JSFMACLJR) has successfully pulled off (quite effectively too, I might add) the wearing of the Balmoral bonnet without a tweed 'Argyll' jacket of some sort, and actually has worn his bonnet without wearing Highland dress at all. I recall Sandy posting a photo of this on the forum, as I know I have seen it before. Sandy has also used his cromach whilst not wearing Highland dress - the same photo I believe - and the context was indeed appropriate.

Perhaps he'll chime in a wee bit later. Cheers,

Sandy is not an exception, Kyle. After a lifetime he knows exactly what to do and how to do it. I don't see him as attempting to "pull off" a bonnet-wearing look; he is just himself, comfortable in his clothing. He is not seeking advice because it is second-nature to him and if he is wearing a bonnet without a jacket he's not breaking some sort of rule.

[Jock Scot]

Sandy is not an exception, Kyle. After a lifetime he knows exactly what to do and how to do it. I don't see him as attempting to "pull off" a bonnet-wearing look; he is just himself, comfortable in his clothing. He is not seeking advice because it is second-nature to him and if he is wearing a bonnet without a jacket he's not breaking some sort of rule.

Absolutely, well said Rex.

[creagdhubh]

Sandy is not an exception, Kyle. After a lifetime he knows exactly what to do and how to do it. I don't see him as attempting to "pull off" a bonnet-wearing look; he is just himself, comfortable in his clothing. He is not seeking advice because it is second-nature to him and if he is wearing a bonnet without a jacket he's not breaking some sort of rule.

Oh, I most certainly agree, Rex! I never said he was an exception.

I suppose where I disagreed with you was in regards to the bonnet appearing as "costumish" when not worn with the appropriate jacket (and other traditional Highland dress accessories), though you did state, "if it looks like costume," which from my personal experience, is generally quite a noticeable difference from the more traditional approach towards Highland day attire.

Cheers,

[SlackerDrummer]

Sandy is not an exception, Kyle. After a lifetime he knows exactly what to do and how to do it. I don't see him as attempting to "pull off" a bonnet-wearing look; he is just himself, comfortable in his clothing. He is not seeking advice because it is second-nature to him and if he is wearing a bonnet without a jacket he's not breaking some sort of rule.

I think this is just another example of the old adage, "you have to know the rules to break the rules." Of course, the real meaning behind that is that you have to have internalized the rules to successfully pull off breaking them with good effect. And, as with most circumstances or situations to which that adage might apply, it is usually obvious to those in the know as to whether or not you have pulled it off (and probably not to you).

[Jock Scot]

Tobus.

Blimey!! Where do I start! Okay then, here goes! First thing to remember that we are not talking black and white. We are talking many and various shades of grey and then some.We are not talking hard and fast "rules" but we are discussing the aplication of experiance. Now please everyone there are those who will wear this that and the other that varies from the norm, so please I beg you, don't flood the thread with pictures from the internet with historical "facts"and"exceptions" to prove a point. We all know that they exist in great numbers and do tend to muddy the waters and cause extra confusion. Let us learn to "walk" with the basics, before we start thinking about "running" with adding flair and adaptations that may or may not be appropriate.

Hats these days are rarely worn by anyone in Scotland. There are a few notable exceptions such as ghillies, game keepers, shooting men, fishing types and the country set. The "John Deere" style is gaining popularity with the younger "town brigade" and I note, drivers of John Deeres! So the balmoral is rarely let out to play and things like a Highland Games is where you will see some-------not that many. Most of those attending will be wearing jeans, T shirt, and water proof coat. Tweed will be seen if you look and kilts worn by non competitors will be few.

I have never heard of the no cromach without a jacket and bonnet "rule", but a convention might exist that I am unaware of. I use a cromach and have done for years, it is not an affectation and others will be perfectly at ease carrying a cromach wherever they may go, but as I have said common sense is required on when and where is appropriate. Now The Clan Chief and his entourage and games officials at a Highland Games are almost expected to wear and carry the whole caboodle, no one else is. So please yourself, which usually means a few will wear the kilt and tweed and possibly a cromach if they normally carry one. Other kilt wearers will probably wear a pullover with or without a tie. I doubt that the total number of spectating kilt wearers would number 20%.

Now we come to the tricky part! Most kilt wearing spectating Scots at a games or anywhere else during the day, will not be wearing a ginormous horse hair sporran, dirk, diced hose, patterned hose tops, white hose, semi-dress(ugh) sporrans, ghillie brougues, plaid or a bonnet.If they are, then they are likely, but not necessarily by any means,to be not "professional" kilt wearers, or are learning the ropes.However we do need to be careful, as I do know of some Scots kiltwearers of long standing that try out new ideas from time to time!

We need to be careful here, a fur sporran even a new one is regarded as more historical, though "correct", than traditional these days. So it is easy to overdo things quite innocently. An old beaten up fur sporran(not the military style horse hair things) is worn by some long standing kiltwearer ------or the chap who left his sporran at home and has borrowed one out of a trunk at a friends house for the event.

So what would I(others will have variations to this in Scotland, but I doubt that we will be far apart with our decisions) wear to a Highland Games, or some such? Well, it depends, if I am a guest of the Chief, or major sponsor. It depends on the weather, it depends on the midgies, it depends where I am going before the event and after the event, and it depends on my mood.But should I decide to go just as a kilted spectator, I would wear stout well polished brogues, plain coloured hose, plain flashes, plain sporran, tattersall shirt,with a tie probably, perhaps a pullover, perhaps tweed jacket, perhaps with waist coat, carry my cromach because I need it these days and depending on the weather a balmoral, or maybe a "fore n aft". If it rains a lot, then a "Barbour" of some sort.

Or I could, if I had them to hand, go in jeans, T shirt, no hat and trainers like most do!

[thescot]

Tobus.

Blimey!! Where do I start! Okay then, here goes! First thing to remember that we are not talking black and white. We are talking many and various shades of grey and then some.. . .

Thank you, Jock, for another well-thought out commentary. I suspect that everything you said was pretty well true and accurate. People can always do as they choose, and you make excellent points about dos and don'ts, etc. There is a range of "correctness" (for lack of a better term) within which one looks "correct" or "traditional."

We have a similar range of dress in the U.S. business world. No one publishes a directory or list of rules, but we all know what they are. We know when one is "correct" or not, but it comes from a life time of wearing clothes in that situation. I might wear a tweed sport coat and trouses to a business meeting, but it would depend on who was there, what understood level of dress would be expected, ect. The people in attendence would not all be dressed indenitcally, but all would likely fit into the range. Think of it as an upper and lower limit of a sine wave. (Hahahahahaha)

And I still say that you can't be too traditional.

[creagdhubh]

Thank you, Jock, for another well-thought out commentary. I suspect that everything you said was pretty well true and accurate. People can always do as they choose, and you make excellent points about dos and don'ts, etc. There is a range of "correctness" (for lack of a better term) within which one looks "correct" or "traditional."

We have a similar range of dress in the U.S. business world. No one publishes a directory or list of rules, but we all know what they are. We know when one is "correct" or not, but it comes from a life time of wearing clothes in that situation. I might wear a tweed sport coat and trouses to a business meeting, but it would depend on who was there, what understood level of dress would be expected, ect. The people in attendence would not all be dressed indenitcally, but all would likely fit into the range. Think of it as an upper and lower limit of a sine wave. (Hahahahahaha)

And I still say that you can't be too traditional.

***

[Tobus]

Many thanks to Jock and Rex for their replies.

I agree wholeheartedly that good photos are better than words, but where will we find the photos that describe the details of the previous paragraph?

Well, I'm not sure what the answer is. What I think it comes down to (for those of us across the water) is this: if we emulate photos we see from the Highlands, we are often told that we are being costumish or "too traditional" because those photos don't represent the everyday way of wearing a kilt. We are told that we just don't get it. OK, fine, I can understand that. But if that's true, then surely someone, somewhere, has taken photos of less showy (i.e. more "normal-yet-traditional") ways of wearing it. Jock Scot has shown us some examples in the past, and has given us at least a cursory description above.

I think perhaps we need more of that, if we American chaps are to truly understand the fine line that apparently exists between traditional and costumish.

[ThistleDown]

Many thanks to Jock and Rex for their replies.


Well, I'm not sure what the answer is. What I think it comes down to (for those of us across the water) is this: if we emulate photos we see from the Highlands, we are often told that we are being costumish or "too traditional" because those photos don't represent the everyday way of wearing a kilt. We are told that we just don't get it. OK, fine, I can understand that. But if that's true, then surely someone, somewhere, has taken photos of less showy (i.e. more "normal-yet-traditional") ways of wearing it. Jock Scot has shown us some examples in the past, and has given us at least a cursory description above.

I think perhaps we need more of that, if we American chaps are to truly understand the fine line that apparently exists between traditional and costumish.

I think you have come up with the answer, Tobus, both in what you have said here, and -- of equal importance -- what you did not. You did not attempt to "defend" your way of wearing Highland dress in response to my critique. You simply accepted it. That takes a great deal of self-understanding and a pretty high level of desire to learn. Lots of nods from me.

For a long time Jock, in particular, and others of us, too, have been trying to explain the difference between how Highland dress is worn in the Highlands, and how it is worn elsewhere. I'm pretty sure we will continue to do that; the problem for us is that new folk joining the discussion means that we have often to start all over. On the surface that is frustrating at best and quite annoying when the one who has asked for comment then assumes a definsive posture citing singular examples or historical photos as proof. We get over that and move on with the help of serious knowledge-seekers such as you.

I won't speak for Jock and his family, but in mine we don't carry a camera about with us to take photos of our daily activities and those of our friends. That means that there are very few kilted ones we can post here for you. The newly-taken photos on XMarks are almost always of non-Scots in Highland dress and, as I said earlier, it would be petty of us (and quite tiresome for you) if we were to make too many comments of them. We have, mind you, and I for one recall the wrath of Thor coming down on several occasions (the wearing of flat caps with the kilt springs immediately to mind).

Within the rules of the forum (Rule 4, for example) it is difficult to find and post photos of others.

But we will certainly continue to talk and answer questions as best we can.