Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?

[David Thorpe]

Another Kyle Plus One!

[Father Bill]

Tripleblessed, you are a gentleman and from what I read, a gentle man. Thank you for expressing well, a perspective that I have often offered to both deaf and hearing ears.

[Phil]

Thank you for an insightful post, tripleblessed, and I for one, which I am sure all my Scottish colleagues would agree with, would never begrudge your homesickness or indeed any attachment you have to your ancestors' homeland.
Like yourself, I can only think that I, and all the other Scots who contributed to this thread have not communicated our thoughts and beliefs well when they have been interpreted in the way that some have chosen. Whether this is our fault or theirs I must leave to others to judge but, sadly, whenever an opinion is sought whether it be this subject or a choice of kiltmaker or a place to visit then there seem to be so many differing ones offered that a clear choice is all but impossible. They are, however, just opinions but provided they are consistent and based upon that individual's genuine experience and not some figment of their imagination they should at least be given the respect they deserve. After all why ask in the first place?

[CMcG]

I suppose you are referring to me in your opening sentence, Colin. If so, I must say that the words you put into my mouth are quite distasteful. If you wish to re-read post 286 in this thread you may gain a better flavour of my 'political' dish.

Rex

My word, but this is getting convoluted! Jock responded to my post #344 and wrote that the Scottish outlook on kilted others had nothing to do with politics, to which you agreed. The extreme, essentialist opinion that I outlined in my post #352, was not meant to be construed as yours (or anybody else on this forum), but rather a summation of the perspective that Jock assures us is real and present in Scotland. My confusion is that assigning someone an identity based on citizenship seems inherently political, so I don't understand how the two of you think it isn't. But perhaps one or both of you was referring to something else that is now lost in reams of posts

I reread your post #286 and am very glad that there are Scots like you who are pleased for people outside Scotland to wear the kilt -- regardless of their background -- and it is very reasonable that people who wear the kilt should recognize that its origins are in the Highlands, that it is Scotland's national attire, and that they should wear it well. I agree! Thank you, ThistleDown, and I hope it is now clear that I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.

[CMcG]

I think your confusion is less to do with the fact that you have forgotten, by your own admission, some of what has been written in this thread. What it appears more to do with is what you have chosen to think you remember but which has not actually appeared in this thread. I can find no statement from a Scottish contributor that states non-domiciled Scots should not wear a kilt, quite the reverse in fact. I believe one of my comments early on was to such effect.

Phil, I appreciate that there are Scots like you who are OK with people outside Scotland wearing the kilt. I don't think anyone who is a member of Xmarks holds the most extreme and essentialist view of kilt wearing because this forum would drive them bonkers. Nonetheless, Jock has informed us -- both in this thread and in others -- that there are people who do think citizenship trumps all other ties to kilt wearing and that non-resident Scots shouldn't be wearing another country's national attire. Along that continuum includes a Scottish outlook that says non-domiciled Scots can wear the kilt, but are just "playing at being a Scot."

I would be happy to know that people who hold such exclusionary and/or derisive opinions are rare in Scotland! I doubt there is any way of knowing for sure, but how prevalent would you guess are the exclusive, inclusive, and indifferent outlooks on people from outwith Scotland wearing the kilt?

Other misapprehensions such as regarding a proud and ancient nation such as Scotland as merely a region of England are quite another and one which, hopefully, will begin to be resolved next year.
It would help immeasurably the standard of this debate if contributors took the trouble to read and understand correctly what has been posted rather than rushing off a hurried post full of misinterpretaions, misapprehensions and plain misunderstandings.

Speaking of misinterpretations...

I think you are referring to my post #29, where I referred to Scotland as a region of the UK -- NOT England. In the same paragraph I also suggested that nationhood stems more from identity than simply from the properties of sovereignty, whereby I wrote that I think Scotland is a nation. It may not, just yet, be one that can issue a passport with Scottish nationality, but I also hope that this will be resolved next year

But again, if no-one (or very few people) in Scotland thinks Scottish national attire should be solely linked to citizenship and residence, then this is a moot point.

[Jock Scot]

Its just not me saying it Colin. Steve Ashton the owner of this website has come across it more than once whilst visiting Scotland as he has recounted on this website more than once. A member here(still?) Irish Jack, hit across this view when talking to a visiting Scot in, I think Texas(see the kilt Kops thread) and others here have also come across it. So it does exist rather more widely than just this website and its minority Scots members here. How general that opinion is in Scotland? Well we can argue about that too, till the cows come home and still not resolve the issue.

I honestly think that you and other non -Scots-------- you are not Scots so non -Scots is a reasonable and realistic description in my view, but if you can come up with an accurate and better description that is more to your liking, then I will be more than happy to use it--------are over-thinking all this. The Scots take a view that they do, there is no political slant to it, there is no personal animosity to it, there is no real dis-respect meant by it and there honestly is not, it is what it is and has developed over time, a long time probably by some admittedly vague means to develop to what it is today. I have to say that in my experience of over 70 years the general Scots opinion has not changed much, one way or the other.

Now I hear what non Scots are saying in that they(at least some anyway) are at the very least uncomfortable with these Scots thoughts. Frankly I don't think either point of view will will ever be understood. I have to say in all honesty I do think many of you are being way too over sensitive over this. Try accidentally spilling a Glaswegian's pint and see what sort of verbal broadside you get!!!! But, BUT, at least each point of view is at least aware that a differing one exists and at the very least is a start.

[scotswelshrunner]

It has taken some time in reading the vast majority of the posts in this thread. And a very interesting one at that. I'm new to the forum but having been a well traveled man, can at least throw in my own two cents. Every culture has what it calls it's own style of dress or heritage. Many European and Asian styles followed the immigrants hereto the USA in the 18th to 21st centuries. Being an American by birth means viewing this melting pot from the ground up and taking it all in. What some see as "playing at being Scottish" with kilt wearing is nothing but pride for the wearer. Not "playing".
Viewed from an American with deep Scottish/Welsh and English heritage, one can put on the shoes of foreign cultures and see how it changes. Many examples abound but a few strike me more than others. The American baseball cap is worn all over the world yet 99% in this country do not take offense to others wearing them. A pair of Levis jeans are something also similar. Granted, there are not "national" articles of dress. But the point is still valid in my opinion. I'd never tell someone from Scotland they have no right to wear Levis or baseball caps because of said being an American invention. Not a bit. I think the percentage of Scots frowning on others wearing kilts is minimal myself and in the end, we have the freedom to wear what we want no matter what a few souls in Scotland think. Isn't freedom grand!!
The few Scots I know personally have pride themselves in seeing their heritage and national dress being worn in other lands. It instills pride that they themselves are part of this BIG world that gets smaller everyday due to the way we communicate. Yes I wish I could live in Scotland or Wales myself but cannot and make do with and love the American version of the Highlands, living in the beautiful and mountainous pacific northwest. The kilt allows me to celebrate my Scottish heritage far from the home of my grandparents and other family members but also to share it with others.

As for the kilt, well today I try it out in public for the first time ever!! The jury is out as to how I will be received and my own feelings when the day is over. But the few times I have worn it instill me with pride and power in my own heritage and that alone makes it all worth it.

My lines above don't add much to the discussion but just show a bit of how I feel about the viewpoint. Thanks for letting me share!!!

[CMcG]

Its just not me saying it Colin. Steve Ashton the owner of this website has come across it more than once whilst visiting Scotland as he has recounted on this website more than once. A member here(still?) Irish Jack, hit across this view when talking to a visiting Scot in, I think Texas(see the kilt Kops thread) and others here have also come across it. So it does exist rather more widely than just this website and its minority Scots members here. How general that opinion is in Scotland? Well we can argue about that too, till the cows come home and still not resolve the issue.
...

Yes, indeed. I was using you as a source, but there are others... hopefully not too many, though, or we might not be too far from international restrictions on Scotland's national attire in the way there are restrictions on the use of the term "Scotch whisky."

Here's a cartoon that is sort of related, but I am including to lighten the mood:

...
I honestly think that you and other non -Scots-------- you are not Scots so non -Scots is a reasonable and realistic description in my view, but if you can come up with an accurate and better description that is more to your liking, then I will be more than happy to use it--------are over-thinking all this. ...

I don't mind if you want to call me a non-Scot, seeing as my heritage is mixed and my Scottish connection is ancient. For people with a more direct and/or recent Scottish pedigree, it would be favourable to use terms like "hyphenated Scot i.e. Scottish-Canadian," "overseas Scot," or "member of the Scottish diaspora," because these terms recognize the complexity of their hybrid identity as BOTH ethnically Scottish and a citizen/resident of another country.

[Phil]

I would be happy to know that people who hold such exclusionary and/or derisive opinions are rare in Scotland! I doubt there is any way of knowing for sure, but how prevalent would you guess are the exclusive, inclusive, and indifferent outlooks on people from outwith Scotland wearing the kilt?

I find this one a difficult one to answer as it is not something I have ever encountered in Scotland and can only give a personal view. I have never questioned anyones 'right' to be wearing a kilt and am always pleased when seeing it worn. Whenever rugby is in town I often see Welshmen parading along Princes Street in kilts and just have a smile and wish I was wearing mine. As to others, well we know Jock has his own view and I seem to remember one or two others here expressing similar views. I don't for a moment think that Jock would ever approach anyone and challenge their right to wear a kilt though because that is his private opinion and it would just not be done to cause an affront in such a way. I recall elsewhere talk of some buffoon handing out leaflets to white hose wearers and thinking that is the action of a cad, certainly no gentleman would ever behave in such a way.

Speaking of misinterpretations...

I think you are referring to my post #29, where I referred to Scotland as a region of the UK -- NOT England. In the same paragraph I also suggested that nationhood stems more from identity than simply from the properties of sovereignty, whereby I wrote that I think Scotland is a nation. It may not, just yet, be one that can issue a passport with Scottish nationality, but I also hope that this will be resolved next year

But again, if no-one (or very few people) in Scotland thinks Scottish national attire should be solely linked to citizenship and residence, then this is a moot point.

Nationhood for Scotland and the Scots is an extremely touchy subject, not just recently but you just have to go back to Burns' time for an example -
"Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story.
Now Sark rins over Solway sands,
An' Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark where England's province stands-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitor's wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valour's station;
But English gold has been our bane-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

O would, or I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi' Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for English gold-
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation! "

So you see it's nothing new. Did you know, for instance, that the original alliance that granted dual citizenship in both Scotland and France was only eventually revoked by the French government in 1903, almost 200 years after the union of parliaments? And when travelling abroad it is galling that most people think that the whole of Britain consists of England. To experience your country being subsumed in this way invariably evokes a hostile reaction. It is a bit like saying Canada is a northern region of the United States or New Zealand a region of Australia and I can imagine the reaction that would get!
As to kilts being associated with citizenship and residence, most people I know don't even own a kilt. Many I have met have no objection to kilts but would never consider wearing one themselves - they mostly don't think it has any relevance to them and their outlook on life. Others such as Mohammad Al-Fayed and some Sikhs and other, fairly recent immigrants seem to rejoice in wearing kilts and it may be that they see this as a way of proudly associating with their adopted country.

[aonghas]

Just a personal observation, years ago when I was still working at a machine shop as an apprentice, I had the habit of playing pipe music on a boom box as I waited for the boring mill to finish a particular cycle. Now I had started early that shift and as my normal schedule played music (pipes band), the outgoing shift passed by and a lot of eyes turned my way. The very next day as again the shift passed by and of course pipes were being played I noticed that the "Scots" had formed up and marched by, the following day again the march by but this time they were followed by most of the outgoing shift. The level of passion, joy, pride, emotions, longing that flowed from the "Scots" was overwhelming. I don't think that some folks here understand the relationship of ancestry, culture, language have on people that are away from their roots. Home has a multiple meaning in these cases. I experience this on a daily basis in my own situation. Blood will call out to blood and it will find a way to bond or re-bond given the chance.

There's a lot of passion here on both side, which is good compared to apathy.