Victorian Kilts

[Scotus]

Well, it was worth a stab. Thanks, Matt. I simply call it a "kilt" or "traditional kilt," but I know there are guys who are sensitive about the use of the word "traditional."

[Scotus]

Having just returned from a visit to Bear's Web site, they really aren't "traditional," are they? They have the look of the traditional, up to a certain point. As the discription under the photo explains, there are modifications from the traditional kilt.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Actually, I went to his page after reading your post and what he calls a "Traditional Kilt" (http://bearkilts.com/traditional/traditionalkilts.html) looks to me like what you or I would call a traditional kilt. Or am I maybe missing something?

I don't know about all this classification. I guess it's neccesary in today's kilt economy when if you just call up a shop and order a "kilt" you never know what you might get.

It used to be that you could just order a "kilt" and you could tell your kiltmaker details like "I want it with two straps instead of three" or "I prefer only 6 yards instead of 8" and the like. But now with so many variations, even the traditional Scottish kiltmakers are having to come up with names for them.... Lochcarron's Casual kilt. Hector Russell's Hillwalker kilt. Etc.

The problem I have is that these names tend to be too restrictive. Like the "casual kilt" for instance. This name is used for a kilt that is knife pleated but only has 4 yards. Well, why is this casual? Worn with a black formal jacket and fur sporran, what is wrong with it? So I have to dispell that impression and tell people that you can wear a four yard kilt to a formal event -- I got married in a four yard kilt!

That, for me, would be the biggest reason I would have against calling the traditional kilt something like "Victorian" etc. That is restrictive. You are saying this kilt belongs to this period, and the implication is then that it is part of an historic costume.

So I agree with Fr. Archer -- let's just call it a kilt!
M

[Archangel]

I am wondering why Bear started this thread. I'm not sure if I was just to insult trads by calling us "Victorian," but I do believe it is not within the scope of this forum to find new definitions for kilts, as there is already a common usage for the different versions of the kilt. People call the four yard box pleat kilt the "four yard box pleat." People call the 16th century version, "the great kilt." People call the 8 yd. kilt the "traditional kilt." We already have terms that are in use.

I just sense something else behind the desire to label the traditional kilt. If there are those of us who wear the 8 yd. kilt who don't like the demeaning term "Victorian," then I don't think it is up to Bear or any of the more modern kilt wearers to come up with new terms for the traditional kilt.

I wouldn't attach anything dark to Bear's question, his only likely benefit would be an increase of hits to his website. That would not be a huge gain for those on this board are already aware of it.

His motives can be honest, even, especially, as he is in the trade. At a certain point in discussion taxonomy and nomenclature become important. As we have already seen on this thread, and others, we don't always mean the same thing when we use the same word. When we order from Bear, or any merchant, is very important that we are talking about the same thing.

Myself, I use the terms "regimental" or "military" to describe what most people refer to as a "tank". That, to my mind, covers most kilts from the 1780s to recent times with a few exceptions. Prior to that, there's basically just two, big and little. In contemporary times, I just use the term "modern kilt" for the lighter, lower ones and generic names for the newer styles that are coming in right now: utilikilt-type or cargo-kilt type. From there a few prefixes will refine the term: a 6yd, box pleat, camo, cargo tell me lots.

It might be good to have a glossary/reference section on this site just to put pictures or examples of agreed upon names. That would stop, prevent, slow down some arguments, ...maybe.

Anyway, for a lot of these terms, we are in the historic moment of having to define these things. We should be able to define the terms peacefully for that does not require agreeing to like that thing. I can passionately hate something, it's good for us to be able to name it so we are talking about the same thing.

[bear]

I am wondering why Bear started this thread. I'm not sure if I was just to insult trads by calling us "Victorian," but I do believe it is not within the scope of this forum to find new definitions for kilts, as there is already a common usage for the different versions of the kilt. People call the four yard box pleat kilt the "four yard box pleat." People call the 16th century version, "the great kilt." People call the 8 yd. kilt the "traditional kilt." We already have terms that are in use.

I just sense something else behind the desire to label the traditional kilt. If there are those of us who wear the 8 yd. kilt who don't like the demeaning term "Victorian," then I don't think it is up to Bear or any of the more modern kilt wearers to come up with new terms for the traditional kilt.

Holy crap!
I toss an idea out for discussion and now I'm the man behind the grassy knoll! Thanks for the conspiracy theory, Scotus. I needed a good laugh!

"Traditional" is a poor word for an 8 yard kilt with a selvedged hem and knife pleat that is tapered in the fell and blah, blah, blah. It suggests that Scots wore that type of kilt through the ages and the tradition has been passed down through generations. Since we know that to be untrue, why not toss out the idea that another name might be more suitable? Victorian is apparently incorrect, as well. Interesting discussion, though! (At least until it got a bit silly.)

Now Mulder and I have to go meet Cancer Man in the mother ship for tea. We're wondering what to re-name the sporran! Cancer man wanted Nancy bag but we took his smokes until he relented. Cancer man: what a card!

[Archangel]

<snip>
Now Mulder and I have to go meet Cancer Man in the mother ship for tea. We're wondering what to re-name the sporran! Cancer man wanted Nancy bag but we took his smokes until he relented. Cancer man: what a card!

man-purse is the common name around here.
(when I was a kid the dirty joke was that a sporran was the hairy thing between a Scotsman's legs.)

[kiltsdotcom]

As sellers of kilts I think we come up against this more often than most people think. When customers are asking about kilts we get that few that want the old great kilt. They can consider that a traditional kilt and another person may consider the one we sell today as a traditional kilt. Most people that have posted seem to of missed Bears point. The kilt we sell today and the accessories we use with them have been a standard in basic shape since the Victorian Era. Bear, I like it. This name would seperate it from the other garments that are confused with what we sell as a " standard " kilt. Bear we are with you on this.

[Bob C]

Why in the world would we name our Scottish national dress after an English queen?

Yes, I know she was the queen of Scotland, too. Not all of us are happy about that. ;-)

[Doc Hudson]

Why in the world would we name our Scottish national dress after an English queen?

Yes, I know she was the queen of Scotland, too. Not all of us are happy about that. ;-)

If you want to get really picky about Queen Vic, she was the German Queen of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, Empress of India, Defender of the Faith, and several other titles I've forgotten.

[Bob C]

Yes, she was all of that "by the grace of God."