Sgian dhu II

[auld argonian]

...and I guess that these legal restrictions would really rule out just about ANYTHING that I've seen sold as a sghian dhub.

I've mentioned before that I don't carry one because I don't think that it pays, in a city like Chicago, to send out the signal that you're armed. Maybe some of our gang here who live in more rural surroundings don't have the same "urban pressures"...and it's more common and acceptable in those parts to carry a knife - probably a folder in a belt sheath - because you're actually going to USE it for something practical.

I expect that one of the "dummy" sghians wouldn't be much better. I don't know about you guys but the argument could be made that you can, with enough force, manage to shove anything that's longer than it is wide into somebody's ribcage. Hey...they're banning glass bottles in Glasgow because they're trying to keep them from getting used as weapons...wanna drink your beer out of plastic bottles from now on? (Although I give the Heinekens in the little barrel shaped cans high marks!)

So why bother? You obviously don't get a pass if the lethal weapon in question is prettier than average because it's made out of stag horn and has a phoney jewel in the hilt. Our desire for an object that pleases us aesthetically overcomes our grasp of what is practical. Kilted Knight mentions that he keeps his blades in the safe...I have the same situation...I have all of these cool knives that can't leave the house because they're "illegal"...I bought them, my choice, my collection.

So I'll leave the Sghian for ceremonial occaisions...when I find one that's adequate and I figure I can drop the bucks on it without my wife going ballistic, I'll buy a more traditional one. Till then I have something to act as a "placeholder" when I go to the Highland Games...but I will consider the fact that I'm buying something that will hardly ever see the light of day when I do decide to pick one up and that will influence the amount of $ that I'm going to spend on it.

Best

AA

[Nick]

I had no idea that two edges made a difference. Nick any idea if this is true in Michigan, I know you had talk about the laws here.

Doubled edged knives are illegal to carry in Michigan. You can carry sheath knives, but they have to be visible (i.e. hanging from your belt or sticking out the top of your hose )

There is a bit of ambiguity, of course. There is the matter of "intent":

-750.226... Carrying with unlawful intent
Any person who, with intent to use the same unlawfully
against the person of another, goes armed with a pistol
or other firearm or dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or
knife having a blade over 3 inches in length, or any
other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, shall
be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in
the state prison for not more than 5 years or by a fine
of not more than 2,500 dollars.

Here is the section covering the matter of "concealed":

- 750.227. (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk,
stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of
any length, or any dangerous weapon, except a hunting
knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about
his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in
any vehicle... except in his or her dwelling house [or]
place of business... (3) A person who violates this
section is guilty of a felony...

So yes, a sgian's legal to carry in MI, as long as the top of the handle is visible. I'd say a double edged is taking a risk I'd rather not take.

If these excerpts have changed, I can't find any evidence of it. I got these from http://home.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm, and double checked them against other websites. The Michigan state website got rediesigned and I can't find the laws anymore.

[Mike S]

Yes, and Michigan like my home state of Texas and my current residency of Kentucky has a lot of wildlife/outdoorsmen/hunting (there is a lot of "wildlife" in motor city too, but that's another story....).
I shutter to think what the laws are like out California or much of the east coast regarding public carry of edged weapons and the like!

[David Thornton]

OK Mike, with my inspiration and your skill we should be able to come up with something!
Do you want to build your Kentucky cousin (also McDonald) a sgian?
Come on down to Paducah this weekend and we'll plan.
David

[David Thornton]

Take a look at this one, is the blade configuration also incorrect?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rantanen-Custom-...ayphotohosting

I did notice a lot of variation of blade in the modern sgian. And please explain the reference to stag handles as all indication is that early sgians were predominantly stag.

David

[Mike S]

Hi David,
The second Ebay Dagger is O.K. for a sgian, but is again too small IMHO. All neck knives are going to be diminutive by design, and for that amount of money, you can find a nice quality sgian without having to "adapt" if from another knife form.

The reason I mentioned the stag horn, is because some are under the belief that Sgian Dubh referred to the knife's handle having to be made from Scottish Black Oak, or a similar dark wood, when in fact it meant a concealed knife. Obviously since many early Sgians DID have Stag handles, the dark color idea is dead in the water.

I'd love to make one for you were I at a level of skill I felt comfortable laying in the lap of others, however I am at the "grind the blades from steel blanks" stage, and not the supreme "forge the blade" level, which is what you would want for an heirloom quality art knife. Someday!

[Panache]

This has been an interesting thread. I feel that the sock knife adds to the whole kilted look. My wife bought me a sgian dubh for Valentine's Day. It's the Oxhorn one from the Scottish Tartan Museum store (Thanks Matt!). The handle is classy, subtle, and I love it. But when I thought about wearing it for everyday use I had some concerens about carrying it. Especially since one of my daily trips is to take my son to kindergarten. My solution was to cut a piece of hickory (a part of a hammer handle) and sand and shape it into a knife handle. I drilled a hole in it, stained it, and then used expoxy to set a small black comb into it. I finished it with a small silver and blue tie tac set into the handle. It certainly is light years away from the beautiful handles Rab Gordon makes, but as Mercutio said " 'tis enough, 'twill serve ".
I get the look of a sgian dubh without the worry about metal detectors or if it is or isn't legal. I'll save my oxhorn one for appropriate occassions and use my "Sgian Don't" (as my wife has nicknamed it) the rest of the time.

You know with the remaining piece of wood I should try to make a bottle cap opener....

[KiltedKnight]

Okay folks, now I'm going to blow your mind. As far as some "laws" go there's a good chance that they are not laws at all but only "codes". I won't go into detail unless the moderators here will allow it but firstly, a case from the Supreme Court of the state of Washington, (not Washington D.C., they have nothing to do with us), called "Self v. Rhey" found that "code" was not law. So there is argueably no crime since there is no law that is broken for violating a "code".
There is also a case from the Supreme Court of the United States called "Yick Wo v. Hopkins" that states that we as Sovereign flesh and blood men and women, (that is very important; flesh and blood), are not subject to the law which is called "code". These are interesting reading especially since the government uses a lot of "terms" which are not words. In law the "terms" person and individual generally mean corporations and the government uses these terms to confuse us into thinking that some of these codes have something to do with us.
As strange as this may sound it's true. Find out if the law in your state is actually a law or a code that has nothing to do with you and remember, if you allow the courts to fool you into admitting to be subject to these codes they'll gladly take your money.

Chris.

[Mike S]

Hi Kiltedknight,
While your edification concerning the distinction between Codes and Laws is fascinating and enlightening from an academic point of view, unfortunately it is moot when officer "doing his duty" pulls you over, and either arrests you for carrying an "unlawful", or unlawfully concealed weapon, or at the very least confiscates your costly family heirloom away from you and ruins your day.

I actually know a well known antique weapons dealer who was pulled over for a tail light out, and detained for hours because he was transporting some two and three hundred year old bladed weapons secured in his trunk on the way to a Sothebys Militaria Auction! The blades were worth tens of thousands of dollars, but Officer means well wasn't buying it.(I can just imagine storming into Fort Knox brandishing a 200 year old French Officer's Sword, I mean really).

Arguing the point via an attorney in a court of law some days later is up to the discretion of the individual and certainly your prerogative (albeit a costly one), but I think most of us would like to avoid either scenario!

[auld argonian]

Mike S is telling us this story about the sword collector and in the meantime I'm seeing goofy teenage boys running around at the Highland Games with massive broadswords (and these were not antiques...) strapped to their butts...? "Pull over there, junior....what have you got there...okay, Braveheart, where's the battle?"

And I would just like to point out another product that Cold Steel makes...their plastic "skean dhu" that will theoretically get through the metal detectors...lots of laughs there...just what I want to see! Couldn't they model it after something else?

Best

AA