Legally kilted

[Riverkilt]

Hey SB,

I still like Jerry Griffin's solution best....sick the clan attorneys on them. Read about it in the November 2004 Utilikilt Newsletter

http://www.utilikilts.com/news11-04.htm

It worked for him. Look about midway down the newsletter

Ron

[Mysticwolf]

Hey SB,

I still like Jerry Griffin's solution best....sick the clan attorneys on them. Read about it in the November 2004 Utilikilt Newsletter

http://www.utilikilts.com/news11-04.htm

It worked for him. Look about midway down the newsletter

Ron

Though Jerry's story is encouraging, I feel compelled to point out that he is an employee of a State University. Public employees have a leg up, so to speak, on those in private business and industry, where what the corporation says, goes.

[Riverkilt]

Aye, for sure.

But a strong point of Jerry's story is that clan attornies carry a big stick and can be a resource for the kilted in conflict.

Ron

[Mysticwolf]

Aye, for sure.

But a strong point of Jerry's story is that clan attornies carry a big stick and can be a resource for the kilted in conflict.

Ron

Good point Ron, and well taken!

[NewKilt]

This has indeed been a very interesting and inlightening thread. I would have to agree that companies in the private sector can set whatever dress code that the deem appropriate for the success of the business. I applaud those companies in the private sector that are forward thinking and do allow men to wear kilts to work if they choose to do so.

If kilts became a "current social norm" as have pants for women, then companies in the private sector would probably have a harder time prohibiting men from wearing a kilt in the workplace. That said, I don't think we are going to see kilts or any unbifurcated garment for men becoming a "current social norm" (in a western culture) in the near future. The words "current social norm" imply change, and things change very slowly.

Darrell

[macwilkin]

Aye, for sure.

But a strong point of Jerry's story is that clan attornies carry a big stick and can be a resource for the kilted in conflict.

Ron

But not every clan society has its own counsel, Ron -- the Clan Donald Society is certainly big enough to have one, but smaller societies, like my own, do not.

Just an observation.

T.

[Chris Webb]

Thank GOD I'm SELF EMPLOYED!!

My kilts actually GET me business, but, as a self employed person I can use what ever I WANT to get business. One more thing, I, as the owner of my own business, can REQUIRE an employee to wear a kilt as a condition of employment. Imagine THAT!

I posted earlier the simple way the original poster of this thread could meet the requirements of being able to wear a kilt ... adopt a religion that expects kilt wearing or develop a desease that requires kilt wearing as treatment.

Having had more time to think about it I realize I left off the EASIEST and most COURAGEOUS way to get to wear a kilt to work: Quit working for a boss and BE a boss.

For God's sake, don't think you can EVER have the freedom of a dog running outside the fence and STILL have all the safety of living inside of it.

I hate to say it but many of the men who want to wear a kilt at work and can't because of 'company policy' are simply trying to have their cake and eat it too. The company likely gives you so freakin' many benefits that you are practically being baby sat.

I have no medical benefits, no corporate retirement, no sick leave, no vacation days, no paid leave of any kind ... BUT I have FREEDOM and can wear my kilt any damned time I want. PLUS, I work to purchase all those benefits for myself anyway, nobody has to 'give' them to me.

Truth is any of the men on this forum could have the same Freedom I have, they're just not willing to pay the price for it. Stop whining. Stop threatening legal action. Fall in line and collect your checks and benefits packages ... in whatever clothes they tell you to wear.

Frankly, the brave women who won the rights for all women to wear pants are likely not impressed by us ... they wore what they wanted and often got fired. Those women already showed us how it's done ... most of us are just not man enough to do what they did.

The courts will never take an interest in men's rights to wear kilts until a few men are genuinely hurt by the current rules. A few of you are going to have to lose jobs. Freedom isn't free, never is.

Crying, "Jane gets to wear pants so why can't I wear a skirt," just isn't going to cut it.

Kilt On, if you can.

Chris Webb

[Riverkilt]

Jeez Louise...if folks would take that same "social norm" argument and apply it to women starting to wear pants back when I was just entering the business world they'd see how ludicrous their position is.

I'm really lucky to work where I do. My agency has let me wear kilts to work with no problems other than the expected initial teasing for two years...full time for ten months.

My agency's dress code is classic. Our dress code is that there is no dress code, but please don't make us institute one.

It helps to work in an industry where cultural sensitivity is important.

Most companies, if you root through their mission statements and principles the do business buy are bound to have stated positions that support wearing kilts to work...ya gotta root through the policies and principles to find them though.

Was an employee representative for many years on Honeywell's Principles Committee and the highest management had trouble defending actions contrary to those core principles.

Every time one of these threads fires up I recommit to interviewing kilted should I ever change jobs.

Ron

[Archangel]

The other day after much debate the head of my company's HR department with the VP decide that kilts were not appropriate unless worn for medical or religous reasons. With a medical or religous reason you can wear almost anything. The question is do any of my fellow x-markers know of any US legal cases to refute the HR deamons.

I figured I'd put in the original question so we're back on track. I've got some training/education in this area so I'll give you what I know.

First, and please don't jump on me until you get all your facts straight, the US doesn't have any real Human Rights laws. Check it out and get over it.

Now, some states do have some Human Rights and certain businesses do because dealing with internationals demand it. Some unions have made huge gains but, because unions are seen as the "enemy" to most Americans, those gains haven't advanced to other job sites.

International jurisprudence gives you the edge, and so do some state rulings.

Here's what you need to find out. Your bosses referred to some Human Rights terms: medical or religious. Usually, if there is a Human Rights (HR) law it includes more than that. Those are two "grounds", Canada has 11, Ontario has 14 (I might be a bit out of date on those numbers, the principle is right). The ones you want to see are National/Ethnic Origin or Gender. (The one you really want to see is Culture but you won't.)

Gender is usually two parts: for simplicity's sake, harassment and equity. You're not talking about harassment until after you wear the kilt, unless they are giving you a hard time just for asking. Equity should be a two street, if a woman can wear a skirt, a man can. (A kilt is a type of skirt, get over it.) Reality says that you will have a long fight to win this, and deep pockets. In most other countries, the gov't would help you fight this. Unfortunately, you're in the US.

National/Ethnic Origin is getting stronger. It's really not that good an argument right now but Scotland has done some interesting things lately to strengthen your claim. Kilts have become standard at some national institutions and the reason the army went to kilts was national identity.

So, anyway, didn't mean to offend about your country. You'll probably need a good lawyer, patience and deep pockets. Good luck.

In the meantime, ask your people to define "professional attire", have a look at Geoffrey Kilts, 21stCenturyKilt, and see how they compare. Patience is probably your best ally. The Zen is "be strong like grass", let the wind move over you and stand up to it again. The time to "be strong like an oak" is not now, you'll be uprooted and never rise again.

[Archangel]

Did a bit of research for you:

Colorado State: Human Rights legislation is not really there and very little is protected. The Equality of Sexes language is very basic and might allow the argument that if women can, then so can men. They'll probably argue not intent of law. If their people twist it to cross dressing, there is definitely no hope.

Denver City has Human Rights Language which does not cover National/Ethnic Origin.

In contrast, Boulder has better language which does have the grounds you need. Some of these grounds are in direct conflict with state law so it gets interesting.

It's a very confusing legal system there, but it looks like your best bet would be to start working with people to make Denver's laws the same as Boulder's. Better yet, work with others to make Colorado's like Boulder's.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, I've just had some good training in this field. Also, each word in law may have a different legal meaning than the normal, or the same legal word anywhere else.