Kilt Go Braugh? A cultural/historical question

[Archangel]

Agreed. Besides it's a waste of good booze if all you end up doing is puking it back up again.

Umm, I think you've missed the point. I think they were complaining about other people's drinking (not Irn Bru).

[pdcorlis]

Here's another big thank you to the Mods for re-instating this thread and to all the participants so for - the discussion has been a very helpful outline of gaelic/irish/scots roots and connections.

I remember being quite amazed when I first read about Dal Riata and all that followed.

[Archangel]

I came across a good way of presenting Scottish views from a book by Michael Lynch, Scotland. He suggests we view Scotland as three diagonals regions based on the geographical dividing structures. From that perspective we can avoid lumping the whole country together. Each diagonal has their own commonality rather than with the whole country.

On the kilt on St. Patrick's day question, I'd say go for it. I don't think anybody really knows and just go for anything vaguely Celtic. I've had more yics (yahoos in cars) shouting out anti-Irish sentiments at me when I'm kilted than anything Scottish, go figure.

[McFarkus]

I came across a good way of presenting Scottish views from a book by Michael Lynch, Scotland. He suggests we view Scotland as three diagonals regions based on the geographical dividing structures. From that perspective we can avoid lumping the whole country together. Each diagonal has their own commonality rather than with the whole country.

I'd like to hear more about the regions - or do I need to get the book?

[Archangel]

Seeing as I'm still up...

The book is a very comprehensive history of Scotland so you might enjoy reading it. I like reading histories and court cases, I'm funny that way.

Anyway, we tend to think in terms of longitudes and latitudes. Scotland doesn't do many things straight (check out the Irn Bru ads).

Have a look at the map of Scotland. We always thought it looked like a witch on a broom. There's two big indents on the east coast: the Firth of Forth in the south; the Firth of Moray in the north. On the west there's also two but not so clearly defined: Clyde and Lorne.

There's a mountain range in the south that runs from the north side of the Forth to the Clyde. Until recently that was an effective barrier to travel. South of that range is land that is accessible to England and all that entails. Edinburgh is in that region. Most of the battles and political action takes place in this region. As a rule, nobody got past Stirling. The Romans built two walls here to keep the Picts back.

North of that range, is what is considered the highlands. The geography created pockets of people, clans. Glasgow is in lower western corner of this region (it's actually south of Edinburgh but grouped north of it). Most of the clan history takes place here. This is where the Gaelic is more common. Few invaders got through to this area, except for the last time. The north border of this region is the diagonal along the rift that runs along the Lorne-Moray line.

North of the Lorne-Moray line is where the pure Gaelic would be found. Also more Scandinavian influences. Picts ruled back when. No invader got past this line.

This is a very rough outline so I don't expect to get picked apart on this.

For the sake of the subject at hand, the Irish influence came into that middle region and spread through it. It kind of forced the Picts north and east. Later on in history, the English had some of the Scots from primarily the south region go back to Ireland and take over Irish estates. There's no real connection to the migrations, it's just the way it happened, causing all sorts of trouble on the way.

Again a rough overview, if you want more get the book, or Prebble's The Lion in the North.

[McFarkus]

Again a rough overview, if you want more get the book, or Prebble's The Lion in the North.

Thanks! You've whet my appetite. I think I need to get the book.

[Andrewson]

If we're recommending books on Scottish History can I add that the best book I have ever read about that turning point in Scottish History - the Scottish Enlightenment post the 1707 Union of Parliaments - was written by an American academic, Arthur Herman: "The Scottish Enlightenment - The Scots' Invention of the Modern World" (ISBN 1-84115-276-5).

Among many other things he deals with the formation of presbyterian Northern Ireland and the spread of Scots to other parts of the world, especially the USA. A lively and fascinating read.

[jackson1863]

In my gut, and the back of my head, I can make sense of this, but I'm wondering about the cultural/historical background of Scots and Irish culture becoming sorta -- comfortably overlapped?

Admittedly, my response to your question will be more speculative than from a position of extensive research. First, I would say that I as an American am probably not able to appreciate fully all the dynamics of the question. Secondly, I speculate, as a Scot-Irish descendant of the MacNaughton clan (McKnight) whose ancestors came to America in the 1700's, that some of the overlap comes from that group of immigrants who came to America beginning in the 18th century. I wonder if our celebration of the holiday is more influenced by these descendants.

Perhaps a member more educated than I regarding the subject could speak to whether the Scot-Irish heritage in America has any bearing on the question of overlap.

Just raising some further thoughts and questions.

Great question by the way!

[highlander_Daz]

I find that America in particular has a fascination with the history of other countries- that may be due to the fact that America is a relitively young nation in the grand scheme of things, and secondly because the majority of its residents hail from other lands, large numbers of Irish left for the states so its no suprise that Irish culture (and Scottish) is celebrated, its less usual for people in England to have this fascination with their roots, take for example Steve McLaren hes got a Scottish name and red hair but regards himself as English, which of course is his choice, Tony Blair was born and educated in Edinburgh, but regards himself as English, Sandy Lyle was born in England but regards himself a Scot, I have family born in England but they considor themselves as Scots, so your roots are a factor but less so in the UK, Gordon Brown has been promoting britishness and was seen last year on telly, rooting for the England football team, so there is a big overlap of cultures, in todays society people like to "pidgeon hole" you as something, in the UK you tend to be judged on how you speak, for example, Colin Montgomeryand Gordon Ramsay, both have English accents as do a lot of Scots Lairds etc, but Scots non the less.

Rod Stuart is someone who has made a living from being a "professional" Scot, despite being born in London (to Scots parents) there was a scatihng article about Rod in the Scotsman a few years ago criticising his Scottish credentials as bogus because he was Born in London, which was a little unfair , Rod has got Scots blood and promotes Scotland all over the world, albeit in a slightly stereotyped way.

[12stones]

This has been a completely fascinating read. Now I've got some books to go find.