Civilian Spats

[Chef]

Marl wool is made from more than one colour being twisted together. Things knitted from marl wool have that "tweedy" look to them. The marl of the hose is the background colour made from the marl wool. Most hose tops have an area that only has the background colour, or marl, since it is assumed that it will be covered by spats.



Worn properly only the diced area shows above the spats. This would obviously be harder if the spats are lower. However it would probably be very easy to have custom hose tops made with the pattern all the way down to the lower cuff to prevent this.

[Piobair]

Man spats are almost always a bad idea. Period.

If I see a piper in spats and he's not wearing no. 1 dress, I assume he's probably not that good or he's in a band that's not particularly competitive.

If I see someone who isn't a piper or in a parade or the victim of a prank wearing spats, I assume they've never worn a kilt before.

If you're going to Burns Night or St Andrews party and are trying to pull off legitimate Scottish formal wear, either go all out for diced/tartan hose (you can occasionally get cheaper exMOD varieties or simulated argylle that matches a variety of tartans) or a pair of decent hose. You will almost never see someone in Scotland wearing spats, even Prince Phillip; and you know he's probably got some around if he really wanted to. Spats and hose tops are for military uniforms, anything else looks silly.

[Bugbear]

Thanks for explaining marl, but being of low class, I kind of think marl hose would look cool. Tweed hose sound kind of cool.

[Chef]

If I see a piper in spats and he's not wearing no. 1 dress, I assume he's probably not that good or he's in a band that's not particularly competitive.

Well that's interesting since many of the top civilian bands as well as police and regimental bands use spats for not only their No. 2 Dress but often for their No. 3 dress (usually the summer uniform). Even the Royal Regiment of Scotland wears them for the No. 2 Dress. Of course I haven't heard them yet so maybe they're not that good.

Spats and hose tops are for military uniforms, anything else looks silly.

I tend to agree that the military spats we see today wouldn't work, but I don't think the same thing can be said for civilian spats. They might be considered "old fashioned" but so are some of us. The formal kilt outfit is not very far removed from its uniform roots so I think it might be worth a try. As for silly again he might look "old fashioned" but I don't think you could rightly call Sir harry Lauder silly in his kilt and spats.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

deleted by author

[Piobair]

Chef -

Sorry to disagree, but none of the top civilian bands wear spats. SFU, Field Marshall, Shotts, 78th, SLOT, etc. Jackets, vests, and solid colored hose. As far as pipers are concerned, there's "no 1" (plaid, doublet, spats, horsehair sporran, etc.) and "daywear" (jacket, hose, day or evening sporran, ghillies, etc.). "No 2" isn't a widely used term. In general, no 1 is for parades, "daywear" is for the competition circle. The only legitimate competitive band in the military is RSDG, and they wear daywear on the field. Even then, they're not really a "top" band.
As for piping in the US, I can't think of ANY band in grade I or II that wears spats. If they do, its with plaids and doublets. Spats/hose tops and button down shirts tend to be the domain of street bands.

As to your second point, I wouldn't Harry Lauder as representative of traditional Scottish values. He was a hyperbolic "stage" Scot, and I think most would agree that he was more vaudevillian than an accurate representation of a typical Scot. Thats sort of like using Charlie Chaplin as your benchmark for modern men's style. Doesn't apply. Andrew Carnegie was a Scot, and I've seen him in trousers more often than tartan.

I'm really not trying to be rude, just stating an opinion and why I think it's valid. Oddly enough, a very similar discussion is going on now on the Dunsire piping forums.

[Bugbear]

I really don't care what you wear for your formal hose, but I hope you find what you feel best in.

[puddlemuddle]

Piobair,
Soooo....scince I have worn hose tops with spats and a button up shirt and vest..I guess that what you are saying is that Im not a very good piper then...I have worn them because I think they look sharp, AND I think they go well with what I have had on, I have also worn them with a police style dark blue shirt, and they looked sharp there too. Guess what, Im not in the miiltary, so I don't have to go by their regulations, now I actually do not wear them anymore because I feel they dont go with my new kilt (before they were worn with my BW tank), but I dont see any reason to start stating that any piper who would wear such as a thing probablly isn't a very good piper....I do take offense to that.

[Piobair]

Puddlemuddle,

I'm going to respond to your post privately, something I would have preferred you had done initially. I will say that the irony associated with highland dress, especially in the US, is that some people will go to incredible lengths to validate a point, citing all kinds of arcane and esoteric material to back their claim. Then, in almost the same breath, they'll completely contradict their initial statement. So you'll see someone trace the origins of Clan X back to some hillside in Aberdeen in order to demonstrate the correlation between the blue found in Clan X's tartan and a particular variety of sedge found in that aforementioned location, and then conveniently forget that most Aberdonians didn't wear tartan, and that the forbears of Clan X took their societal cues more from the court of France than from any imagined stronghold of a romantically imagined Gaelic aristocracy. Then they trot of to the games (or the mall or the renaissance fair) feeling completely confidant in what is essentially some pedantic BS, forgetting that there others who are also members of the community who might take offense.


Everyone has a right to accept certain ideas while rejecting others, especially when it comes to an area dominated by as much spurious and subjective scholasticism as the dubious "official" history of Highland dress. Keep in mind that there will always be people who reject what you consider truth and hold dearest the thing you find most ridiculous. That's just how the world works. Being able to express these differences is what allows for the evolution of ideas.

Except when it comes to spats.

[Chef]

Sorry to disagree, but none of the top civilian bands wear spats. SFU, Field Marshall, Shotts, 78th, SLOT, etc. Jackets, vests, and solid colored hose. As far as pipers are concerned, there's "no 1" (plaid, doublet, spats, horsehair sporran, etc.) and "daywear" (jacket, hose, day or evening sporran, ghillies, etc.). "No 2" isn't a widely used term. In general, no 1 is for parades, "daywear" is for the competition circle. The only legitimate competitive band in the military is RSDG, and they wear daywear on the field. Even then, they're not really a "top" band.
As for piping in the US, I can't think of ANY band in grade I or II that wears spats. If they do, its with plaids and doublets. Spats/hose tops and button down shirts tend to be the domain of street bands.

Well I will differ to your knowledge of specific bands as I don't know them by name. Also I guess No. 2 dress is more a military term rather than a civilian. I do agree that military spats look better with a military uniform in my opinion. By the way, the Scottish Regiment uniform code does call for spats below No. 1 dress I think they look fine. Also, I am sure that I have seen non-military bands using a similar uniform.

As to your second point, I wouldn't Harry Lauder as representative of traditional Scottish values. He was a hyperbolic "stage" Scot, and I think most would agree that he was more vaudevillian than an accurate representation of a typical Scot. Thats sort of like using Charlie Chaplin as your benchmark for modern men's style. Doesn't apply. Andrew Carnegie was a Scot, and I've seen him in trousers more often than tartan.

I will strongly disagree with your characterisation of Sir Harry however. There is no doubt that he was a vaudevillian and many of his costumes are not what anyone would wear. However he also took his position as an unofficial Scottish ambassador very seriously. He wore a kilt as a symbol of Scotland and it became one of his trademarks. He certainly wore it more frequently than most but when not wearing a characters costume, he wore the kilt as it was worn in the day. Spats were worn by civilians at the time and I have seen several pictures over the years of men wearing spats with kilts during that period. So as I said they look old fashioned.

Andrew Carnegie was indeed a Scot, a past president of the St. Andrew's Society of NY (a group for which I have served as Chairman of the Board of Managers) and he rarely wore a kilt. He also spent a great deal of his life as an American business man. While all that is interesting I don't see how that reflects on how Sir Harry wore his kilt. I'm not suggesting that what Sir Harry wore was representative of what the Scots wore day to day. However he wore his kilt in the way it was worn during the period, just more frequently.

I'm really not trying to be rude, just stating an opinion and why I think it's valid. Oddly enough, a very similar discussion is going on now on the Dunsire piping forums.

I didn't think you were being rude. That's what a forum is all about...sharing knowledge and ideas. You are obviously are well versed in pipe bands and competition and I expect that you will have much to ad to this forum. I do thank you for the opinion on civilian spats. I wouldn't have put the thread up if I didn't want replies. Where I think you may have crossed the line was on your comments about pipers and their uniform. I'm not a piper but I can see where that might be considered insulting.