Help with white tie

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Actually, clan chiefs get to wear 3 feathers, chieftains wear 2, and armigers get to wear 1.

BTW, I thought formal wear required the donning of white gloves. Am I off?

I'll dig out my 1912 copy of Dress Worn At Court and see what it says. My hunch is that gloves weren't worn because Levees were held indoors, during the day, and outside of the presence of ladies.

While I'm at it, I'll check on the status of feathers -- while you are correct about the 1-2-3 feather thing, a different rule may have applied at court.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Black silk velvet Full Dress Doublet. Silk lined.
Set of silver Celtic or Crest Buttons for Doublet.
Superfine Tartan Full Dress Kilt.
Short Trews.
Full Dress Tartan Stockings.
Full Dress long Shoulder Plaid.
Full Dress white hair Sporran--silver mounted and Tassels.
Patent leather and silver chain Strap for Sporran.
Full Dress silver mounted Dirk with Knife and Fork.
Full Dress silver mounted Skean Dhu with Knife.
Patent leather Shoulder Belt, silver mounted.
Patent leather Waist Belt, silver clasp.
Silver mounted Shoulder Brooch.
Silver Kilt Pin.
Lace Jabot.
One pair Buckles for instep of Shoes.
One pair small ankle Buckles for Shoes.
Full Dress Brogues.
Highland Claymore.
Glengarry or Balmoral. Crest or Ornament.

This is copied exactly as it appears in the 1912 edition of DRESS WORN AT COURT which was issued with the authority of the Lord Chamberlain. There are a couple of things worth commenting on (aside from the spelling of "skean dhu"):

In THE KILT, written by Loudon MacQueen Douglas and published in 1914, there is a photograph (opposite page 33) of David Hepburn in Levee Dress. Although the waistcoat is not mentioned by the Lord Chamberlain, I think it may be taken for granted that, like the doublet, it was of black silk velvet with silver buttons.

The mention of "short trews" is interesting. These generally were supplied by the tailor, and were made of superfine tartan wool, often with a chamois lining and always (on surviving examples) with a button waist and fly. They were high waisted and snug fitting, rather like modern "boxer briefs", with legs that reached to approximately mid-thigh.

Presumably, for modesty's sake, a kilt pin was also required. In THE KILT there is a group photo (opposite page 32) in which can clearly be seen the kilt pin worn by W. Sutherland M'Kay, and it is of the "blanket pin" variety. Whether more elaborate kilt pins would have been worn with Levee dress is, at this point (1912), a matter of conjecture.

Describing the required foot wear as "full dress brogues" is, in all likelihood, mis-leading. There is ample photographic evidence to prove that the shoes were almost identical to regular court shoes, with the addition of the ankle strap and small silver buckles.

There is no mention of "eagles feathers", so presumably they were not worn. Likewise there is no mention of "white kid gloves"-- whether this is an oversight on the part of Mr. Herbert A.P. Trendell, Chief Clerk of the Lord Chamberlain's Department, or a deliberate decision on the part of the Lord Chamberlain is unknown.

Interestingly, for those Scottish gentlemen being presented at court who were not armigerous the Lord Chamberlain allowed them to wear "ornamentation" on their cap. This would have taken the form of a smaller version of the brooch worn on their left shoulder.

[BoldHighlander]

There are a couple of things worth commenting on (aside from the spelling of "skean dhu"):

I have seen this spelling from time to time in books or on the internet.
I wonder when "sgian dubh" became the more common/accepted spelling that is used now?

[McClef]

M.O.R. - I do not have a penchant for picklehaube helmets even for non-motorcycle use.

I still cannot accept your premise that someone who is 100% "correctly" dressed somehow magically vanishes into the background or that someone who is 90-99% is somehow ridiculed. Whereas one may regret relaxations in standards of formal dress from a more elitist "good old days" our more egalitarian age views what is dressy in a different way.

I am glad you are able to get BBC4. I do not know what the dress standards of Japanese Court etiquette are but from what I have seen, the Imperial males are more likely to be seen in western clothing. Hirohito after the war is usually seen in Morning Dress with frock coat and striped trousers. HMQ may have had the option of a kimono for all I know. When she has called on the Pope in an official capacity she followed an apparent convention for a black dress and veil for a non-Catholic Sovereign but it has modernised since earlier such visits to previous Popes. A demonstration of how conventions get adapted over time perhaps?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I have seen this spelling from time to time in books or on the internet.
I wonder when "sgian dubh" became the more common/accepted spelling that is used now?

Good question. Having a quick look through a half dozen or so books on my desk the transformation from "skean dhu" to "sgian duhb" seems to have gradually built up steam starting c. 1950 with sgian dubh as the preferred form coming in to general usage in the late seventies/early eighties. But really, my opinion this is only barely more than a haphazard guess.

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

Does Army full mess dress count as formal? If that is the case, I probably take the award for most formal events.

I would be wary about using a book from 1912 as a guide to modern court dress, especially as many class barriers have been broken down since that time. I would wear white tie, black tie, morning coat, full mess dress, or highland dress appropriately, but there are others who will show up at events wearing black tie or even suits these days. Cripes in the states, you even see blazers.

As one person pointed out, it is not unusual to see national costume at a formal ball in London, WDC, or Brussels. Traveling with the Army, I would be entertained by Arab or African wearing their native dress. I would look silly wearing full Arab dress as anything other than a costume.

Full highland dress is not really white tie. White tie is white tie and tails. While a full highland dress outfit can be worn to a white tie occasion, it should not be confused with white tie.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I would be wary about using a book from 1912 as a guide to modern court dress

I agree, although there has very little change since 1912 in the style of dress, undoubtedly the occasions on which court dress is worn have become fewer over the decades.

I chose to quote the 1912 edition of Dress Worn At Court because it covered all of the items worn in the illustration (which probably dates from the 1930's or 40's). Earlier editions would have included pistols and powder horns, something now dispensed with (except, perhaps, by some Americans).

Upon re-visiting the photograph of David Hepburn referred to in my original posting I note that he is actually wearing evening dress, and not court dress-- I should have looked beyond the velvet doublet, but was distracted by his sporran.

Full highland dress is not really white tie. White tie is white tie and tails. While a full highland dress outfit can be worn to a white tie occasion, it should not be confused with white tie.

I totally agree you: white tie is just that -- white tie. I am always faintly bemused when attending a formal function "south of the border" or "over the water" and someone shows up in "white tie" highland attire. True, it has its place at a "Scottish" function on Halkin Street, but it always looks faintly "costumey" at the Banqueting Hall in Westminster. But then I'm one of those fuddy-duddies who believes that you don't wear highland attire outside of Scotland, unless at a Scottish event.

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

I would strongly disagree with you about the change in costume since 1912, there has been much more of a trend to become less formal. That is backed up by my acquaintances in the "rag trade". As you point out, the costume has dropped the firearms and so forth. Also, People are wearing PC, rather than doublets. Some folk try to get by with black argyll jackets.

I would look pretty silly at a Basketmakers Guild Banquet in my montrose doublet, but would be accepted in DJ. I've seen people in Suits at these occasions. Usually, they are guests at these events. The standard of dress has gone WAY DOWN in the past 100 years.

I would suggest full formal Scottish attire if you are going formal, but that picture is a bit over dressed for most people these days. E.g., Fly plaids are considered optional. I have a Montrose doublet and jabot, but I think that would be going to be difficult to get the outfit together quickly. Just the tartan hose is going to take a while since I don't know of any place that sells them off the peg.

Mixing white tie elements with Scottish attire is also off.

I'm glad we agree on when appropriate to wear Highland wear.

[McClef]

We should also be careful not to mix the phrase highland wear and formal Scottish dress.

A kilt with any combination of style, casual dressy or formal can be seen as highland wear.

I am sure that nobody would wish to limit the wearing of the kilt to inside Scotland or at a Scottish event.

[Coemgen]

White tie is just that, white tie, and the rules are the same whether kilted or in tails.

Mixing white tie elements with Scottish attire is also off.