Bogus commercial heraldry....

[JerseyLawyer]

I can't credit bucket shops with much of anything, but I will say that while the "one man, one coat" idea is pretty firmly held in Scotland, things are a bit looser in England, where it's not uncommon for a man's arms to be borne by all his heirs. So, in that sense, England, at least, has the concept of "family" arms.

Of course, if you haven't done research, then you may not (or rather, very likely don't) have any relation whatsoever to the armiger who simply happened to share your last name. If you did, you probably wouldn't need the guy in the mall to tell you.

Do the people selling "family histories" and "family arms" explain any of this? No. So, I think they're doing people a disservice and creating a false impression of what heraldry is and means. For not much more money, you could get the American College of Heraldry to create your very own arms, which would be more meaningful, and would have a definite connection to your family. Sure, they'd be "assumed" arms, but there's nothing particularly wrong with that (in fact, you could argue that it's the really, really old fashioned way), and I think a better investment.

[macwilkin]

I can't credit bucket shops with much of anything, but I will say that while the "one man, one coat" idea is pretty firmly held in Scotland, things are a bit looser in England, where it's not uncommon for a man's arms to be borne by all his heirs. So, in that sense, England, at least, has the concept of "family" arms.

Well...not quite. Arms which are inherited are usually differenced, i.e. with certain symbols called labels that denote the first, second, third, etc. son known as cadency. Each son traditionally has its own label; for example, in English arms, the second son's arms bears a crescent moon, the sixth a fleur-de-lis, etc. So it's not quite the same as the bogus concept of family arms, but I can see where you draw the connection. Scottish heraldry also has a system of Cadency; our own Sketraw is a perfect example:

http://www.clan-duncan.co.uk/duncan-arms.html

In English heraldry, the cadency labels are used; all you have to do is look at Prince William and Harry's arms to see an example of this system.

Regards,

Todd

[Sketraw]

Eureka!!!..........It was nice to log into this thread this evening and see so many learned members of the forum realise that there is..... in Scotland, England, Ireland & Canada no such thing as 'FAMILY ARMS' In parts of Europe however this may well differ and I agree with Jersey Lawyer, there is nothing wrong with assuming arms in the USA....at least then they will be your own. One thing though, Join the American Heraldry Society or some such organisation to make sure that any arms you may want designed meets with Heraldic standards and dont conflict with somone else. There is more to Heraldry than you at first may think.

Now......what about the £29 'BOGUS' Lairdships such as Laird of Glencairn, Laird of John O' Groats etc etc........these 'Bucket Shops' really pull the wool over peoples eyes by making it sound like a legal Scottish Laird Title. They aggravate me intensley.

[JerseyLawyer]

Well...not quite. Arms which are inherited are usually differenced, i.e. with certain symbols called labels that denote the first, second, third, etc. son known as cadency. Each son traditionally has its own label; for example, in English arms, the second son's arms bears a crescent moon, the sixth a fleur-de-lis, etc. So it's not quite the same as the bogus concept of family arms, but I can see where you draw the connection. Scottish heraldry also has a system of Cadency; our own Sketraw is a perfect example:

http://www.clan-duncan.co.uk/duncan-arms.html

In English heraldry, the cadency labels are used; all you have to do is look at Prince William and Harry's arms to see an example of this system.

Regards,

Todd

Todd,

I think you'll find that the present trend (for the last several hundred years) outside of Scotland, is against cadency marks, with the exception of the Royals, who are often given a completely differenced coat. Otherwise, things become an impenetrable thicket of cadency marks. The Scottish system, of course, is designed to make things easier by using bordures.

[James MacMillan]

So you've found out your blood line doesn't tie to the clan you thought. Perhaps your blood line doesn't tie to any clan. Then be proud of whatever your bloodline ties to. Be proud to be a commoner (by commoner I mean someone who is not nobility). Wear your district tartan, use the Scotland crest badge, get your district blazer patch.

And if we are brutally honest - this applies to the vast majority of us.... And there's nothing wrong with it!!!

Of course we would all like the knock on the door that would tell us that we are the lost King (or Queen) of Upper Flagolia and we own six castles and as many grand estates, and we are set for life......... That's what they call fantasy!

[jordanjm]

In high school I saw one of these businesses for the first time. It aroused my curiosity, and as a result I have read every book I have ever come across on Heraldry. It helped me to become interested in my family history, and to contact my clan association.

[sirdaniel1975]

In high school I saw one of these businesses for the first time. It aroused my curiosity, and as a result I have read every book I have ever come across on Heraldry. It helped me to become interested in my family history, and to contact my clan association.

That's great that it sparked your interest to do your research and contact those who might and probably had more knowledge on certain subjects to help you along your investigation. What a run on ....

Similar thing happened to me, except I was in a Medieval styled banquet hall just outside of London looking at the real thing.

But I'm sure you'll agree that too many take what they receive for $29.95 as gospel. This is the very reason why I started this discussion. I seem to encounter someone about once a month who begins to tell me that they're related to the Duke of Argyle , James II, or some other somebody. Because the family crest people told them so.

I'm glad this thread is getting the intelligent and insightful comments that it is. I hope that this thread may serve as tutorial or a beware and tread carefully when at the Highland Games or Renaissance Festivals to some.

I do realize that sometimes the inaccurate folks can help spark the interest of so many, and perhaps on some bizarre level they serve their purpose in the grand scheme of things. I think my main point to this thread, which I will admit was unspoken; was the amount of folks that are ripped off $ wise and believe the bogus material as factual.

Heraldry has always interested me, and I'm no expert. I have not yet read to much on the subject, but I have a basic understanding that every aspect of someones arms means something. ex. color, symbols, etc... I'm just so amazed at the folks who continually fall victim to these vendors, folks with Masters degrees and the like. It's been suggested by some that people are searching to be somebody or something. Like I said in the last posted message, people need to be proud to be common. When American composer Arron Copland wrote his famous fanfare, it was titled "Fanfare for the Common Man" not "Fanfare for the Noble Man"!

[haukehaien]

But I'm sure you'll agree that too many take what they receive for $29.95 as gospel. This is the very reason why I started this discussion. I seem to encounter someone about once a month who begins to tell me that they're related to the Duke of Argyle , James II, or some other somebody. Because the family crest people told them so.

Yes, until you do the research, you'll be stuck with this stuff. Me? I started with the classic "If your name is 'X' then you're a sept of clan 'Y'" stuff and thought I was a descendant of Clan Donald. Now I know (know because I did the research) that the earliest Scottish ancestor I can trace was a tenant farmer in Fife. And oddly, knowing (really knowing) about Malcom Philp and his tenant farm in Carnock is more satisfying than a misty, made-up connection to someone else.

[Dukeof Kircaldy]

Or, you can take your pick, There are loads of ancestral coats of arms in my family. Fortunately, none of them I can say I really like. Do I feel like having someone come up with one for me? Heck no!

I think the use of the term "fraud" is a bit severe here since all that is being presented is a that you are being deceived of something. These people are selling some form of history.

And as others have pointed out, it can add as impetus to learning our family history.

My dad traces his family back to the 12th Century, which isn't as interesting to me as my mother's American mutt family. I started doing research on that based upon curiosity and orphaned family photos.

Scratch back far enough and I am sure most people have interesting ancestors.

[macwilkin]

Or, you can take your pick, There are loads of ancestral coats of arms in my family. Fortunately, none of them I can say I really like. Do I feel like having someone come up with one for me? Heck no!

I think the use of the term "fraud" is a bit severe here since all that is being presented is a that you are being deceived of something. These people are selling some form of history.

And as others have pointed out, it can add as impetus to learning our family history.

My dad traces his family back to the 12th Century, which isn't as interesting to me as my mother's American mutt family. I started doing research on that based upon curiosity and orphaned family photos.

Scratch back far enough and I am sure most people have interesting ancestors.

Sorry, but I disagree. The people who are innocently purchasing "family crests" are being deceived that the arms of someone in the past who may or may not have been their relative somehow belong to them. That sure sounds like fraud to me.

Regards,

Todd