National Occupational Standards for Kilts

[thanmuwa]

Here is how this could effect someone in the US...
Your kilt, the one you made yourself, worked so hard on, would not be considered a Scottish kilt.

It's not. Made in America is not made in Scotland. (Assuming you made it in the States that is )

The kilt you ordered from Stillwater, USA Kilts, Freedom Kilts, Sportkilt, would not be considered a Scottish kilt.

It's not, and in some cases, the clue really is in the name.

The Kilt you had made by Barb, Matt, or another talented kilt maker, would not be considered a Scottish kilt.

Again, it's not. Back to the whisky argument, the Japanese whiskys are amongst the finest whiskys in the world but they aren't, and never will be, Scotch.

While I agree there should be standards in place, I'm not sure I like the proposed definition of what should be a kilt.

The definition won't be of a kilt, but a Scottish kilt.

I agree that the artisans of Scotland should be able to protect the art they create in these kilts, I don't believe it should disqualify other quality kilts. It sounds good in theory, but I'm not quite sold on the idea anymore than I think French Champagne and Cognac is better than what is made elsewhere, or that Georgia sweet onions are better than Texas sweet onions.

Champagne and Cognac don't claim that they are better than the equivalent made elsewhere (although they imply as hard as possible!) just that what is made elsewhere is not Champagne or Cognac. People in the know tell me that some of the Australian sparkling wines are the equal or better of many Champagnes, just as pretty much everyone on here will realise the quality of, again for example, one of Matt's creations will still be on a par with or better than something "allowed" to be labelled Scottish. It will be an implication of quality, not a guarantee, and has nothing whatever to say about the quality of "non-Scottish" kilts, apart from those claiming a false link.....

And that is assuming it is not just another load of hot air for a slow news day!

[Riverkilt]

This is NOT the proposal that started the thread. It is a copy of the Traditional Kiltmakers Guild's EXISTING standards.


Kilts produced by the members of the Guild will be handmade and guaranteed to be of a high standard underpinned by the training, experience and qualifications held by the kilt makers. Kilts will carry the Guild Label and will be made to the following criterion

This is to certify, that all kilts wearing this label


meet the following

Quality Criteria

• 95% Hand stitched, using matching treads
• 100% wool worsted tartan
• Twill direction correct throughout the kilt
• Uniform stitching throughout, 7-9 Fell stitches per inch
• Pleated area canvas min 8cm deep, secured by 1.5cm long pad stitch
• Apron canvas 10-16cm deep, double pad stitched at both edges and onto apron where appropriate and possible
• Pleats, maximise the number, invisibly lifted
• Fringe, hand dimple stitched, max 2cm depth over 1,2 or 3 fringes
• Belt and/or sporran loops, 1cm, hand sewn, matching the tatan
• Waistband, 1-1.5cm deep, matching front apron at least
• Linings, darts stitched in place, stitched onto aprons where appropriate and possible
• Chapes, matching on the third pleat
• Rise, as per customer requirements
• Straps, 2 or 3, as per customer requirements

The customers are offered a choice of tartans from a variety of weavers and choice is given as to the design of the kilt.

The remainder of the Highland outfit can be supplied through our Guild members


My kiltmaker, Kathy Lare of Kathy's Kilts in Albuquerque, is a member of this guild. Her kilts carry the above label and meet the above standards. I know there are many others on this board who can attest to this statement.

What is most interesting is that her pricing for what I consider "top of the line" quality kiltmaking is often BELOW the prices charged by kiltmakers who make very nice kilts, but in a tailored style rather than the traditional methods taught at the Keith Kilt School. And, of course, if a person is buying their kilt through a middleman the price can be even higher.

I don't read that the Traditional Kiltmakers Guild, or the British effort that started this thread are trying to control the kilt market or steal the term kilt. I read it is that if a person truely wants a quality kilt they know where to go to get one and can trust that they'll get their money's worth and have some assurance their kiltmaker is skilled in the traditional manner of hand sewing kilts. Members of the Traditional Kiltmakers Guild have also met the kiltmaking standards of the Scottish Qualifications Authority for kiltmaking.

There are lots of folks out there sewing kilts up from patterns, from Barb's book, from apprenticing with someone else who learned to sew kilts, or from teaching themselves...all the Traditional Kiltmakers Guild wants to do is let consumers know the quality their members offer.

Same as Realtors, Licensed Massage Therapists, and dozens of other trades and crafts.

Ron

[muirkirkca]

Don't have any problem with trying to protect the country of origin Scotland as the source of the kilt. The traditional kilt trade organization provides a good alternate arrangement for those outside or inside Scotland to make kilts to a prescribed standard. The same would apply to tartans. I would have a problem if there was an attempt to copyright the term kilt by some organization.

Matter of fact I am strongly for clothing labels with the country of origin

[Coemgen]

Sounds like a good idea. As long as the government isn't involved, I'm happy.

[RockyR]

Here's the questions I have...

What if House of Edgar, a mill that provides much of the cloth to kiltmakers, makes a kilt (pleat stitching is INVISIBLE, yet MACHINE sewn)? Is THAT a "Scottish Kilt"?

What if the material is from Marton Mills in the boarders (in England)? Is it STILL a 'Scottish kilt' if the material was woven in England or Wales?

Does a kilt REALLY have to be pleated to the Sett to be a 'Scottish Kilt"?

How would you KNOW that the kilt is 1.5" off the floor when kneeling if the wearer doesn't have the kilt on? How can THAT be a qualification? What if the wearer gives the kilt to his friend to borrow who is 5 inches shorter... is it still a 'Scottish kilt'?

What if the kiltmaker was born in Scotland, traditionally trained in Scotland at the Keith School or under a "master kiltmaker", got all of the cloth from a Scottish mill, followed all of the 'Scottish Kilt' guidelines, but moved to the US to start a kilt business. Would THEY be considered 'Scottish Kilts' or not b/c of the location of the maker?

What if that same person made 1/2 the kilt in Scotland and 1/2 the kilt in the US?

It seems that ANY / ALL of the kiltmakers here in the US would not be allowed to be included under this umbrella (nor would MOST of the 8 yard wool kilts that come out of Scotland, b/c they're machine sewn). I'm not all that concerned about them trying to restrict the title 'Scottish Kilt' as long as they don't try to restrict the word 'Kilt'. THEN I'd have a disagreement.

[Carolina Kiltman]

Rant Warning!

I have to agree with both Rocky and River Kilt. It is always a tight-rope, "walking on eggs" type of problem when attempting to set a standard for a seal of approval on any item. I am, generally in favour of such standards, as they give me, the consumer, a guideline as to assured quality. Where it is actually produced is of less concern to me than the quality I am buying. Yes, I am just chauvinistic enough to buy "made in USA" or even closer to home if possible.

When Scotland becomes independent of England, then some of these issues will become even more important. The T-shirt with the slogan "If it's nae Scottish, it's Crrrrap!" while a crude sentiment, should be correct, at least to the point of the lable "made in Scotland" equals quality. I can remember a time, over 50 years ago when a mechanic for a German racing team bought a complete set of US made wrenches. When asked, jokingly, "don't they make tools in Germany?" replied: "But American tool don't break!"

In this day and age of whoever can make and sell it the cheapest, quality be damned, it is, to me at least, refreshing.
I'll climb down now.

[Ozman1944]

I reckon if it's a male garment, with an Apron in the front, and Pleats at the back and is about knee length, regardless of cloth type or pattern, it's a KILT. Not neccessarily a Scottish Kilt - but a Kilt nonetheless.

Setting a criterior for "Genuine" Scottish products is fine with me.

Let's all have a nice cuppa tea and a lay down (Nap).ith:

[Tetley]

I must admit that I like Howie Nicholsby definition for a Scottish kilt.