Dress tartan = failed concept?

[davidlpope]

I wear the Galician tartan, which has a cream base, but I don't think that it would be labeled as a "dress" tartan, since it's the only one for that region.

I think Galician has gotten to the heart of one aspect of the "dress tartan" phenomenon- here's my working hypothesis:

Certain tartan designs which are brighter than the average tartan, because either they have more white than average (Menzies, Hannay, Napier) or brighter colors (MacMillan, Macleod of Lewis, Barclay) will gradually get replaced by more conventionally colored tartans (usually styled as hunting tartans). These original tartan designs were not created to be "dress" tartans, but over time the popularity of the less bright tartans leads to their designation as "dress" tartans. This designation, and a stigma that is often attached to them, in turn, leads to less wear of these tartans, which further solidifies their status as "dress" tartans- sort of a snowball effect.

If this theory holds, i wouldn't be surprised to see a "Hunting" Galician tartan in the next decade or so which would gradually replace the current version in popular wear.

Cordially,

David

[HeathBar]

Barclay has no regular tartan. Just dress and hunting. The hunting seems to be the original tartan from the 1842 VS. The text below is from the tartan register description for each tartan. They seem to contradict one another as to which is most commonly used by the clan.

Dress:
"Based on the earlier hunting sett which appeared in the Vestiarium Scoticum in 1842. Barclay's appear to have no 'regular' tartan. The dress version assumes this role and is the sett most commonly associated with the name."

Hunting:
"The Barclays come from Aberdeen and since that was not in the Highlands, they would not have had a tartan. However the Sobieski Stewarts 'invented' one for them in their 1842 Vestiarium Scoticum and it took hold as it was then included in J Claude's 1880 pattern books 'Clans Originaux' where it is simply labelled 'Barclay' - no mention of 'Hunting' at all. There are two versions of Barclay family tartan - one with a yellow ground and this hunting version which has a green ground. The latter comes from Vestiarium Scoticum. There is no 'regular' Barclay so the hunting is most associated with the clan."

From my experience the dress tartan is the more popular of the two for clan members. My guess is because it stands out in a crowd better than the hunting version. It is the one most used in flags, banners, and kilts.

Not sure how this fits in your theory, David. I'd be curious to know where the dress tartan originated since it came after 1842.

[davidlpope]

Barclay has no regular tartan. Just dress and hunting. The hunting seems to be the original tartan from the 1842 VS. The text below is from the tartan register description for each tartan. They seem to contradict one another as to which is most commonly used by the clan.

Dress:
"Based on the earlier hunting sett which appeared in the Vestiarium Scoticum in 1842. Barclay's appear to have no 'regular' tartan. The dress version assumes this role and is the sett most commonly associated with the name."

Hunting:
"The Barclays come from Aberdeen and since that was not in the Highlands, they would not have had a tartan. However the Sobieski Stewarts 'invented' one for them in their 1842 Vestiarium Scoticum and it took hold as it was then included in J Claude's 1880 pattern books 'Clans Originaux' where it is simply labelled 'Barclay' - no mention of 'Hunting' at all. There are two versions of Barclay family tartan - one with a yellow ground and this hunting version which has a green ground. The latter comes from Vestiarium Scoticum. There is no 'regular' Barclay so the hunting is most associated with the clan."

From my experience the dress tartan is the more popular of the two for clan members. My guess is because it stands out in a crowd better than the hunting version. It is the one most used in flags, banners, and kilts.

Not sure how this fits in your theory, David. I'd be curious to know where the dress tartan originated since it came after 1842.

Heath,

Thanks for correcting me. I had erroneously thought that the dress version was in the VS and that the hunting version came later. Also, if more folks wear the dress version, then that disproves my theory (or at least is a major exception to the rule). This is why I like Xmarks- truth will out....

In the case of the MacMillan "dress" tartan (red and yellow), the first reference I've found of it is in the swatchbook "Clans Originaux", c. 1880, where it appears along with "Old MacMillan" (green, burgundy, yellow). It isn't referred to as "Dress MacMillan", though, just "MacMillan." Interesting to note is that a "Macleod-Dress" is recorded, so that distinction could have been made if appropriate. I've collected several old illustrations showing gentlemen in highland day dress wearing this tartan, though, so this formed the general basis of my theory. I intend to do a more-indepth study about the history of this particular tartan.

It would be really helpful if folks would be willing to vounteer to do the origin research on "their" clan's dress tartan (or pick a random one if your clan doesn't have one) and then report back- sort of a group research project. Any takers?

[Tobus]

It would be really helpful if folks would be willing to vounteer to do the origin research on "their" clan's dress tartan (or pick a random one if your clan doesn't have one) and then report back- sort of a group research project. Any takers?

That's kind of what I was hoping to get from this thread by asking the question in the original post of when dress tartans appeared.

My own clan tartan (Colquhoun) appeared well before the VS, and is documented as early as 1816. In fact, the Sobieski Stuart brothers actually got the sett wrong when they put it in their book (which shows how well they researched their work... when they weren't just making it up). But I can't find a date on the dress tartan. Every source seems to say the same thing: "a more recent design". So that led me to wonder if the whole phenomenon of dress tartan happened as a fad in later years or if each particular clan or tartan designer randomly added it over the span of centuries.

[ThinBlueLine]

davidlpope & Tobus,

In the spirit of that concept:

Hannay - Worn by Commander Alex Hannay (1788 - 1844):


"Dress" Hannay - Specimen supplied by Hugh MacPherson c.1980. The Scottish Register of Tartans suspects that this is dance pattern rather than an official dress tartan:


"Blue" Hannay - A derivative created for J. A. Hannah, Balquhidder in 2005. Not necessarily a "dress" tartan nor is it a "hunting" variant:

[kid icarus]

i tend to like the davidson wedding tartan ....of course if i had a LOT more money than what i am investing in wedding upgrades i'd get the davidson weathered and davidson muted.....they are SWEET! ps. i like my davidson kilt if you can't tell.

[Riverkilt]

Boy, the textile mills sure do crank out a LOT of dress tartan cloth. Often see it made up into other garments like men's shirts or made into throws or blankets.

I love my Dress Gordon - don't think its "less than" in any way. Don't think its a "girlie tartan." Think the term dress is just used as a term to describe when a tartan is altered by switching a color to white. No biggie.



Have a Dress Macdonald on my wish list.

Much ado about nothing methinks.

[Tobus]

I love my Dress Gordon - don't think its "less than" in any way. Don't think its a "girlie tartan." Think the term dress is just used as a term to describe when a tartan is altered by switching a color to white. No biggie.

I don't think I was implying it was "less" or "girlie". But are you saying that dress tartans were never intended to replace normal tartans for upscale/formal/dressy events? I had always thought that's what they were for, but that they just never caught on for that purpose.

[davidlpope]

But are you saying that dress tartans were never intended to replace normal tartans for upscale/formal/dressy events?

Right, I think this is precisely the academic question that is being grappled with. Setting aside those "dress tartans" which were created as fashion tartans for highland dancing, does "Dress" in "Dress Tartan" mean "from a woman's garment" or "for formal occasions"?

Peter MacDonald has raised a good point in that we can't seem to produce evidence to establish a link between arisaids and modern dress tartans, which I had always thought existed. If that's not the case then we're back to primary source research.

Cordially,

David

[Tobus]

does "Dress" in "Dress Tartan" mean "from a woman's garment"

Interesting question... I had never heard of anyone claiming they were for womens' dresses. I have always seen them described as simply "more formal" tartans for evening attire as a replacement for the standard tartan (with no distinction by gender).