Irish Kilts and Tartans

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Gentlemen,

Great collection of facts and interpretations of writings. So, now we have the definitive research article to point to and refer the Irish to that they should not wear kilts or have Irish "recognized" tartans.

Just so that I am not misread, I would never in my wildest dreams tell anyone -- Scottish, Irish, American or Indonesian -- that they "should not" wear the kilt or "should not" wear certain tartans.

After all, this is the quote I chose to grace the footer of every page in my blog.

"The Highland dress is essentially a 'free' dress -- that is to say, a man's taste and circumstances must alone be permitted to decide when and where and how he should wear it... I presume to dictate to no man what he shall eat or drink or wherewithal he shall be clothed." -- The Hon. Stuart Ruaidri Erskine, The Kilt & How to Wear It, 1901.

What I do advocate is that people have correct information about what they are wearing, and then make their own decisions accordingly.

[Radge]

Excellent study, many thanks gentlemen. FWIW the Kilt should be a symbol of pride for Scots and the rest of the Celtic world (and anyone else who cares to wear it with respect) in order to show a bit of cultural solidarity - afterall successive monarch's and central governments have given our heritage a bit of a bashing all the way back to those pesky Romans...

[denmcdough]

"The only tartan that could conceivably be a traditional Irish tartan, the Ulster, was worn by a Scot and was likely woven by a Scot as well. The only reason that the Irish tartans are around in for Scottish weavers and kilt makers to sell to plastic patty's."

MrShoe, what gives? Plastic Patty's???? Your remarks are offensive! I'm Irish and love to wear my kilt, no matter how it evolved into an Irish garment. I hope you have a better explanation!

[macwilkin]

Personally I find your quote offensive.......!
If that were the case then only Blood Born Scottish and in effect Highlanders should be allowed to wear the Kilt and certainly NO AMERICAN's, as it stand's the Kilt is for everybody to wear and was adopted by the Irish to affirm a link to their rich and glorious past. Irish men have been wearing the Kilt for long enough to claim it as an Irish icon as well.

As do I. As Matt stated earlier, neither one of us would dare tell anyone, Irish or otherwise, what to wear. All we were trying to do was tell the very interesting history of Irish kilts & tartans. Mr. Shoe speaks for himself only.

T.

[CMcG]

First of all, thanks to the authors for an enjoyable and well researched article. My favorite part was this:
one William Royce called for the adoption of the kilt by the volunteers, saying that the only objections to such a move would “come from the skinny-legged, knick-kneed type for whose faulty or undeveloped ‘understandings’ the pants as a covering are a veritable Godsend.”

<snip> as it stand's the Kilt is for everybody to wear and was adopted by the Irish to affirm a link to their rich and glorious past. Irish men have been wearing the Kilt for long enough to claim it as an Irish icon as well.

I agree with The Thing. The city I grew up in (and where both my parents were born) was barely more than a fur trading post for the Hudson's Bay Company when the Irish started to wear kilts. That's plenty enough history for me in both cases!

Despite the fact that the kilt is not much worn in contemporary Ireland outside of pipe bands and some traditional dancing, it is worn in the Irish Diaspora. This is a fairly common situation for immigrant communities in multicultural environments: people have to try harder in a new locale to stake out a sense of cultural heritage than they would in the homeland.

What I get out of this is that when one wears a kilt as an Irishman, they should acknowledge their debt to Caledonian origins but try to wear it in a Hibernian fashion. Here is a very apt picture to illustrate the point of style versus origin. Solid saffron kilt with green Kilkenny style jacket, but note the watermark that says scottishkilts.net!

[Woodsman]

First of all, thanks to the authors for an enjoyable and well researched article. My favorite part was this:
one William Royce called for the adoption of the kilt by the volunteers, saying that the only objections to such a move would “come from the skinny-legged, knick-kneed type for whose faulty or undeveloped ‘understandings’ the pants as a covering are a veritable Godsend.”



I agree with The Thing. The city I grew up in (and where both my parents were born) was barely more than a fur trading post for the Hudson's Bay Company when the Irish started to wear kilts. That's plenty enough history for me in both cases!

Despite the fact that the kilt is not much worn in contemporary Ireland outside of pipe bands and some traditional dancing, it is worn in the Irish Diaspora. This is a fairly common situation for immigrant communities in multicultural environments: people have to try harder in a new locale to stake out a sense of cultural heritage than they would in the homeland.

What I get out of this is that when one wears a kilt as an Irishman, they should acknowledge their debt to Caledonian origins but try to wear it in a Hibernian fashion. Here is a very apt picture to illustrate the point of style versus origin. Solid saffron kilt with green Kilkenny style jacket, but note the watermark that says scottishkilts.net!

I agree. Those of us of Irish heritage can certainly recognize the Scottish origin of the kilt yet wear it in a style and decor that is recognizably Irish. The adaptation of this dress should be seen as a form of flattery to the Scots and a profession of our historical separations from British rule. Wouldn't it be nice too if now the rest of the world would come to its' senses and adopt the kilt?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I'm surprised no one has noticed this yet. We didn't point it out in the article itself, but in the accompanying pictures, take a close look at the pleats in the kilts. They are all running the opposite direction as we would expect. Mayhaps this was the Irish kiltmakers' attempt to make their version of the kilt a bit different from the Scottish kilt?

[MrShoe]

To start with I am sorry to all I offended or upset. When I read this late last night a was tired and already in a foul mood. My comments were meant to be tongue in cheek, but were not taken that way.

First off I an a proud American of Ulster Irish heritage. Descended from the Tirowen clan, thru the O'Cahan sept as a McCluskey. My Da is 4th generation off the boat and 100% Irish.

I know from what I have read on here that there is usually spirited discussion around St Patrick's Day about whether or not kilts can or should properly be considered "Irish" and "Irish tartans". I agree that your research article was detailed and informative. Much of it I have read thru my grazing on the web about this very topic, but when I read it I felt it had a slant against the Irish in Kilts and "Irish tartans". This my have just been the mood I was in at the time, but I still feel that way.

The kilt as we know it today is 100% Scottish. No contesting that. The only difference in the begining was the use of the belt outside the plaid.(read that as blanket or cloak) The Irish had long before that worn a belted garment that created a pleating effect. These were a saffron dyed tunic called a lein. To say a saffron(solid color) garment was worn in Scotland long before the Irish attempted to adopt the kilt is misleading. A saffron garment worn belted and down to the knee is definitely Irish, just not what is called a kilt at the time.

O'Callaghan -
Here is what was said . The article goes no to make a point to state in 1901 the Royal Inskilling Fusiliers are again clad in full-dress scarlet tunic and blue trousers; not a kilt or caubeen in sight. These were not my words. I agree with you 100%


When the Ulster tartar is mentioned it was probably
made in Scotland, which I have seen no proof otherwise. He was found wearing pants, BTW the Irish National, of fabric woven in Ireland.From what I remember most likely in Dublin. But of course it was added that "Ireland was at this time being settled heavily by Scottish emigrants, so it is at least conceivable that the cloth was woven by a Scottish weaver relocated to Ireland. That continued the feeling that the article was pulling everything back to a Scottish heritage.

I should have not made the plastic patty comments and I an very sorry for that. I don't like the term. "Irish County Crest tartans" nor the so-called “national” tartans, have any official standing at all with the Irish government. Nor do most of the Irish family name tartans have any formal provenance with the families. Even the Murphy tartan was being sold “to American tourists.” And quite a few of these so-called “Irish” tartans were actually produced and marketed by Scottish interests. It would appear that many are simply designed on spec, or as requested by a customer who happens to bear an Irish surname and is looking for a “family tartan.” To me it was referring members of the Irish diaspora who knows little of actual Irish culture, but nevertheless asserts Irish identity. That is the definition of a plastic patty.

I wasn't going to type all this and probably should just stay out of this thread.

Again, I am sorry for the confusion my comments made. They were meant to get under the skin, but be understood that it was sarcasm. I know I have probably just stirred the pot more and shouldn't post this. Feel free to delete all my remarks in necessary. I hope this clears the mud a little.

Matt - nice pick up on the pleats, I noticed that too. But I would have expected a fine craftsman like yourself to catch that. I probably side traced eveyone with my earlier comments.

[macwilkin]

I agree that your research article was detailed and informative. Much of it I have read thru my grazing on the web about this very topic, but when I read it I felt it had a slant against the Irish in Kilts and "Irish tartans". This my have just been the mood I was in at the time, but I still feel that way.

Straight from one of the author's mouths: you are misinterpreting our purpose for writing the article. It was not ever meant to be a slant against the Irish, one way or the other. If anything, it is attempting to tell the real story of the adoption of Irish kilts and tartans, and not the myth.

And btw, many of our sources were not found on the Internet. A number of them are books and articles.

T.

[slohairt]

Excellent article, lads. Very well written. It also looks like the annual St. Patrick's Day kilt debate starts early!

It could also be mentioned that the Canadian Irish Regiment is somewhat unique among Irish regiments in that they wear their own tartan (O'Saffron) rather than a self-coloured saffron kilt. Since this tartan was designed in the 1930s, it easily predates most other Irish tartans.

Also, the kilt and caubeen is the uniform of the whole regiment, not just their pipers. This allows them to make their claim as the only kilted Irish regiment in the world.