wearing other family tartan rather than your own

[Jock Scot]

Kilted Scholar.

You are absolutely correct, apart from ignoring the cutting and socially devastating remark that still, even to this day, often totally ignores any legal, or moral grounds and has the effect of a nuclear bomb. The phrase "It's just not done Old Boy" is outdated in many ways and whilst it effects few in this country in the normal everyday way, it still holds sway when we are talking about Court, formal events, some club ties and as far as clan tartans.

Alright Court events will concern very few and you have covered the MCC club scenario well, but we have many aspiring kilt wearers here on this website who are trying to do the right thing and to be fair to them, they are asking pertinent questions, amongst which, are questions about clan tartans and formal attire and formal events.

As I see it, those that think(some actually do know what's what)they may be able to assist by knowing the answer, try so to do. As has been ably demonstrated in this thread there is more going on than just the legal perspective and the "I will do as I like" position and it is not doing any one any favours by ignoring that fact.

The trouble with "social niceties", particularly British ones, is that so few are written down and to those not used to them it is a minefield clouded in fog, only more lethal! Now our friends outwith the UK trying to wrestle with the conventions of the Scottish kilt are walking straight into that minefield. Now they can take the "I will do what I like route" or "I will do my best and see how I go route" or, like any sensible person with access to some experience will go down the "I will ask and see where it leads me route". If they take the latter route they will discover that there is more to kilt wearing than meets the eye. Now whether they choose to continue down the latter route is entirely down to them or they may decide on one of the other choices and again that is their choice. However, the minefield is still there.

[RockyR]

I don't disagree completely with the "minefield" analogy, but in the US, the results are less severe than death caused by stepping on a mine. A closer analogy in the US may be to a foggy road with potholes. You could blow a tire, but rarely do potholes cause death.

[Jock Scot]

I don't disagree completely with the "minefield" analogy, but in the US, the results are less severe than death caused by stepping on a mine. A closer analogy in the US may be to a foggy road with potholes. You could blow a tire, but rarely do potholes cause death.

Having had a certain amount of experience of both minefields and potholes one always seems to get covered with something!

[MacLowlife]

Minefields? Potholes? What about ye olde pie-filled pasture? And for that matter, there are times when stepping in "it" is no big deal, just as there are times when it matters a great deal. Some of those involve tracking it onto a rug.


By the way, you can't get the regular MCC tie, but Ben Silver, of Charleston, SC, does sell the MCC Touring Club tie to anyone with a hundred dollars or so.

http://www.bensilver.com/fs_storefro...gegroup=search

And that is the crux of this most excellent discussion. Anybody who has $3 can get a Harvard decal for the back of his or her station wagon, but somehow, we assume that the guy who has one dropped a little more and got an education there, too.

Dorothy Sayers' Lord Peter Wimsey had great fun with his friend Inspector Stanislaus Oates over the unwritten codes of different groups and individuals. I still think it is a good idea to try, but I do not think many of us are really going to get more than a basic understanding of another culture by reading and asking questions. And please understand, there are members of at least a dozen cultures participating in this forum every day. We do get one other thing- points for trying- which may be worth more than getting it right, so long as you have the right attitude. Just don't be surprised when some well meaning outdoor American like me walks onto your rug with something on his shoe.

[Mike_Oettle]

Well, well, not a day goes by that I don’t learn something new.
I was unaware of the custom of requesting permission of the clan chief to wear his tartan. I shall be directing a letter to the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres in due course.
Thanks for the heads up, Jock.
Regards,
Mike

[Jock Scot]

Well, well, not a day goes by that I don’t learn something new.
I was unaware of the custom of requesting permission of the clan chief to wear his tartan. I shall be directing a letter to the Earl of Crawford and Balcarres in due course.
Thanks for the heads up, Jock.
Regards,
Mike

Mike, I don't know if you spotted it, but have a look at the pictures section at the "Stone Mountain" feature. Some of the last pictures posted are of the Atholl Highlanders. Anyway one of the chaps posted a connection to their website and interestingly they make a large "thing" about obtaining permission to wear the Murray tartan from the Duke of Atholl.

[Jock Scot]

MacLowlife.

It is impossible to know everything in life, however hard we try, but to ignore people's cultures, conventions, and national attire by just saying "to the devil with all that, I shall do as I like" is ignorant at best and dangerously arrogant at its worst.

By asking questions as you and many, many others here do about the kilt, its attire, history, culture and the protocols that go with it does show that a real effort is being made to do the right thing, even if it is adjusted a tad at the end out of good old enthusiasm, necessity or just plain practicality.That's is absolutely fine with me and we can have a lot of interesting and forgiving banter over the occasional minor faux pas!

In passing, it seems that I would have brought Canada to a shocked standstill by using a certain word (toi---)!I would not have known that I could have caused an upset by using that word----now I do! We all live and learn and that is fine, but blatant deliberate ignorance and arrogance is another matter entirely.

[Irish Jack O'Brian]

In the city of Kano in Northern Nigeria, there is a very exclusive British establishment called “The Kano Club”. At the entrance is a sign that says “Members Only – Black Tie or Native Dress.“ That last bit – native dress – was thrown in so visiting African dignitaries could attend special suppers in prescribed Islamic regalia.

In 1966, four American Peace Corps Volunteers, armed with invitations from embassy personnel, entered the Kano Club, you guessed it, in full flowing African garb - tip-to-toe Grand Bou-Bou from needlepoint skullcap down to embroidered sandals! There was much spilt gin and many a dropped monocle!

As the volunteers spoke excellent Hausa, the evening proceeded with the African wait staff neglecting the regulars in order to hear the humorous observations made by the anasara(whites) about life in post-colonial Africa. Much hilarity ensued. And some gnashing of teeth.

This is an example of willful ignorance and dangerous arrogance. And while the British lion had no teeth by this time, as my old history professor was wont to say, “it could gum you a right smart!” Letters of protest from the Kano Club were sent and chastisement of the volunteers by the American Ambassador was forthcoming.

Today the Kano Club is in disrepair. While the golf course is one of the few still green areas in the city, the swimming pool is empty and the paint is peeling. Since Sharia law went into effect, the club is one of the few places in Northern Nigeria where one can enjoy a wee dram, though nowadays you have to hide in the back room behind the hedge. A new fashion sheriff is in town, and now if you don’t act right there are teeth - stoning, amputation, and flogging. One humorless pomposity is replaced by another. Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

[Mike_Oettle]

Hi, Jock – the practice of chief granting permission for outsiders to wear their tartan is one I have come across.
The previous Duke of Montrose authorised the use of Graham of Montrose for members of First City (the Grahamstown regiment, of which he was honorary colonel in the mid-1930s, when he was Marquess of Graham), and his son, the current duke, has given a similar authorisation to pupils and past pupils (and perhaps staff as well) of St Andrew’s College, Grahamstown, which his half-brothers attended.
The St Andrew’s army cadet detachment and its pipe band, which are affiliated to First City, have worn the tartan at least since First City went entirely into kilts when the marquess took up the honorary colonelship.
(St Andrew’s also had a navy cadet detachment, but that has, I believe, since fallen away.)
On the strength of my membership of First City in earlier years I have worn a Graham of Montrose tie for about four decades. I wore a kilt in that tartan as a serving member, but I am hesitant about wearing it as a kilt now.
I do not regard myself as an outsider to the Lindsay clan/family, since my great-grandfather was a Fotheringham. But since that is not my surname, it seems that an application to Crawford and Balcarres would be appropriate.

Incidentally, one of the most celebrated ladies to have graced the Castle of Good Hope in Cape Town was a Lindsay.
She was Lady Anne, eldest daughter of the 5th Earl of Balcarres, who married (when in her 40s) the much younger Andrew Barnard, whom she accompanied when he was sent to the Cape as Colonial Secretary in 1795.
Since the Governor, Lord Macartney, was not accompanied by his wife, the position of hostess of the Castle went by default to Lady Anne.
She was renowned for the balls and other entertainments she held at the Castle, and made numerous paintings of life at the Cape.
She also undertook a journey into the interior which she recorded in a diary that was published a decade or two ago.
Among the many things she accomplished at the Cape was that she was the first European woman known to have climbed Table Mountain (she wore a pair of her husband’s trousers for the climb!).
The couple left when the Cape was handed over to the Batavian Republic at the end of 1803.
Barnard was again appointed Colonial Secretary when Britain retook the Cape in 1806, but died shortly after his arrival. Lady Anne, who had intended to follow him, learned months later of his death.
Regards,
Mike

[seanachie]

Prompted by the desire to always be respectful, and also to observant of another's culture I was prompted to write the clan secretary of the MacPherson clan (as mentioned in an earlier post I own a kilt in this tartan and have no claim to this clan, and it is the only non universal tartan I own.).

I received an exceedingly prompt and courteous reply. Not all of the response is relevant to this thread but I have excerpted 2 parts that were pleasing.

Thank you for taking the time to request permission to wear the Macpherson/McPherson/MacPherson tartan. I am glad to know you wear the kilt appropriately attired – it makes all the difference to see it worn properly. Enjoy wearing our tartan.


Now it would be unfair and wrong to interpret remarks in the reply without clarification, but in buoying Jock's comments about not wearing the tartan of clan with whom you have not affiliation, I was left wondering if it is presumed that in the Highlands you have some clan affiliation?? In which case there would be a least one clan tartan you could claim.