Freedom in Tradition

[MacLowlife]

[IMG] http://picasaweb.google.com/MacLowli...09465037374050 [/IMG]

Please note the slippage of the kilt, revealing white shirt front beneath the waistcoat...Sheriffmuirish doublet... kilt is Dress Stewart, red hose, med blue flashes. Tie is is the family cricket team- The Lowlife Disreputables

I did I did I did post the link, with image tags on each end, no idea why this cloud follows me, but here is the link:

http://picasaweb.google.com/MacLowli...09465037374050

[Bugbear]

Please note the slippage of the kilt, revealing white shirt front beneath the waistcoat...Sheriffmuirish doublet... kilt is Dress Stewart, red hose, med blue flashes. Tie is is the family cricket team- The Lowlife Disreputables

I did I did I did post the link, with image tags on each end, no idea why this cloud follows me, but here is the link:

http://picasaweb.google.com/MacLowli...09465037374050

I'm not sure what happened there, MacLowlife, except that maybe you had spaces before and after the address, so the VB software inserted URL tags.

I have to work with HTML code a lot and getting everything perfect can be a headache...

Yep, looks like you had spaces. The IMG tags have to be right against the address with no spaces or the forum will insert URL tags around the address.

[CMcG]

[IMG] http://picasaweb.google.com/MacLowli...09465037374050 [/IMG]

Please note the slippage of the kilt, revealing white shirt front beneath the waistcoat...Sheriffmuirish doublet... kilt is Dress Stewart, red hose, med blue flashes. Tie is is the family cricket team- The Lowlife Disreputables

I did I did I did post the link, with image tags on each end, no idea why this cloud follows me, but here is the link:

http://picasaweb.google.com/MacLowli...09465037374050

Thanks MacLL. An image usually ends in .jpg or .jpeg so I clicked on your link, then right clicked on the image and selected "open image in new window." From there I was able to copy the URL of just the image, without the whole picasa web page

Nice doublet! I wish we could see more of it but perhaps you could describe it?

[MacLowlife]

Thanks again to those who help this html-crippled image poster get it right. I will try again soon.
Meanwhile, the doublet: black, made in Scotland by Clan Crois, according to the label...I got it from somebody on eBay- a retail seller who called it something other than Sheriffmuir, but that is what it is, more or less. The buttons are round chrome. It has no pockets at all, inside or out, but has tashes all around., gauntlet-bucket cuffs, and self-piping on the tashes. There is no provision for fastening (i.e., no buttonholes for all of those buttons), which makes the Lowlife tum look acceptable, even expected. The vest comes from the good offices of our own NorCal Piper Josh. It matches my red PC because it was made to go with it...

Now I will go back to lurking and learning from my betters...

[wildrover]

Well, I thought I posted this yesterday before I took off, guess not...sorry, I'm a day behind!

And what is so hard to put one's finger on is good tailoring, careful fitting, distinctive fabrics and the patina of age and quality. Look for the man who looks better than everybody else, even if he is dressed "the same" as everybody else.

For some people, tailoring accentuates the physique. For others, it is camouflage. In either case, it takes into account the shape of the wearer, not just the shape of a pattern in a factory. It is always worth what it costs.

I brought this up earlier, but maybe it was lost in the shuffle. Or maybe it was a different thread...point is...

One thing that I also have noticed is that it's easy to spot the guys who are truly comfortable in a kilt--comfortable enough to "do their own thing".

...McLL's and Whidbey's comments go hand in hand. I cannot stress how critical this is, for every article of clothing you wear. Maybe you'll think "holy @#$! he's rich" or "what a snob" or who knows what, when I say that the few jackets I own, and all the dress shirts I wear tucked in, and even my jeans, have been altered. It's not expensive at all, and the result is clothing that complements you, rather than clothing that just happens to be on your body. Look up your local tailors...should be a good handful under "alterations" or "seamstress" or "tailor". I am not rich, hopefully I am a snark but not a snob, and it is totally worth it.

Well-tailored clothing accentuates an athletic figure, hides the spare tire, and can even direct attention away from the front-butt. If you're not familiar with the idea...go to the men's department in a pair of slim (ie classic cut) dark blue jeans, have your measurements taken for a jacket, and try on several labels. They are all cut slightly different. Now close the button, and look at yourself in the mirror. Too tight in the torso, and the button will pull...it looks like you're a fat guy in a little suit, regardless your actual degree of fitness. Kilt equivalent is jacket too small, kilt too high. On the other hand, too much material around the middle will make you look like a kid who got in to his dad's closet. Coupled with a pair of oversize jeans, you'll look like a clown. Kilt equivalent is jacket too big, kilt too low. Balance the kit to your figure, and you'll be fine.

Look at the shoulders, and the line between the shoulders and waist, when you button up. Does it form a wedge, or does it drop straight down? What does your own body do? Can the cut give the impression of an athletic wedge, even if you look more like a pear?

Shirts aren't much different...a lot of dress shirts I've tried on have had several inches of additional material around the waist, but not necessarily enough around the chest, when the shoulder seams are about right. Solution? Look for tailor-made shirts...the price is not much higher than a good quality tailored shirt off the rack.

When your clothing fits you properly, you will wear it like it's not there. No need to stuff all that additional material in your shirt down the back of your pants, or bunching fabric in the arms of your jacket, or shirt/vest/jacket billowing in the wind even though you're buttoned up and tucked in.

Last item on this "fit" list...a while back, when I was looking at jackets, I asked if kilt jackets could be buttoned, because 99% of the photos I've seen have shown the jacket open. Yeah, it's more casual to leave it open, but all that time and effort going in to fitment, and the flattery it provides, they are all completely wasted when you leave it open. There are photos of guys with their jackets buttoned, but you'll have to look hard. Consider using the button.

Personally I think some honest attention to fit will go much farther than choosing the color of your pocket square or whatever. You can make a clown suit from Armani fabric, and you'll still just have an expensive clown suit.

All the rest? Go to a club and see who stands out, and why. Go to a ball (or something like it) and look for the same thing. Evening engagement at the arts, look there too. You'll see fit, subtlety, balance, confidence, and gentle pushing at the guidelines will always look better than a loud tie, bling, or nice fabric without attention to fit.

So...maybe the answer is "no, there isn't room for change"...the standard will always be set by small personal touches of elegance rather than overly insistent or ostentatious statements of individuality.

If anything, I think those of us here who do not make a "cause" of kilts, save that of promoting tradition and heritage, are breaking the mold. I don't begrudge any FT-kiltie, but one doesn't have to make a daily thing of it to be a kiltie.

T.

Well said...I don't wear mine every day...but then it's not always the best clothing for the job, and I'm not gonna wrap up just for the sake of wearing it. However, that does not change how I wear it, what I wear with it, or my judgment of what looks good with it...it's just clothing, for crissakes. All the advice a guy can use, when dressing for any occasion, is just as good for kilts as pants...make use of it.

how much room is there to look different?

I get what you're saying...however...I would suggest that you look to modern sartorial sources and apply their suggestions to the top, with your kilt and choice of socks and shoes, and see how it goes. Example...for a while last year there was a fashion of lining the cuffs and collar with a complementary fabric to the body of the shirt, so it would show when the collar was open and cuffs rolled back. It's a good look. It was also not uncommon to see the cuffs rolled back over a sport coat...also a good look, if done right...and it's very functional. Great for typing in cold labs, works for piping too.

If I can find a sport coat equivalent for a kilt jacket, I'll put it on the list...but there is always Matt's offer of the custom cut kilt jacket and vest, and the price is high, but not unreasonable for what you're getting.

Don't let your brain check out just because you're looking at sartorial examples with pants instead of kilts.

Let's imagine one has something like a really unique, "loud," or interesting sporran. Would it be better to build an equally idiosyncratic outfit around it or play it more conservative to let the sporran shine?

It would be better to wear a different sporran.

What about perspective? Is it possible to build an outfit that at a distance would have a standard sort of appearance but up close would reveal a wealth of individualized details?

Definitely! Browse the vendor tents at Highland games for people who hand-make jewelry and socks. You'll need a different set of contacts for pewter, I only know one guy now who does that, and it's Artificer. Talk to leathersmiths and blacksmiths. Search online for shirtmakers, and people who can do embroidery. Don't go overboard like some of the shirts sold at The Buckle...word on the street from the classy girls is those shirts have a high likelihood of making a decent guy look like a douche.

Would it be enough to make one look the same as a rented outfit in a line up but deeply different standing face-to-face and comparing the rental vs. individualist?

Sure. Get a bunch of custom work done, then pull your (white) socks up to your kneecaps, your kilt either down to meet them or up to your quads, make sure your outfit is all one color and preferably black, and you'll have what you describe. The plain fact of the matter is that if you choose to deviate from the majority of rental agencies, you will be showing your individuality...and if you are comparing to the few companies who have diverged from the white hose/white shirt/black kilt/ruche tie/PC mentality, firstly you will both be assumed to own your kit, and secondly the only difference between kits will be the fit as I stated above.

Indeed! Some photos in would certainly help back up the usual supects authoritarian statements and sycophantic agreement!

I agree! You are all perfect gentlemen! Let us engage in a group hug (no homo) because men in kilts are all of the same mind and temper and always all get along no matter what! You all look perfect! Kilt on! Yaay!!1! Kum-bah-yaaaaa my lord, kum-bah-yaaaaa...



That 'bout what you were thinking, Z?

[Bugbear]

... I agree! You are all perfect gentlemen! Let us engage in a group hug (...) because men in kilts are all of the same mind and temper and always all get along no matter what! You all look perfect! Kilt on! Yaay!!1! Kum-bah-yaaaaa my lord, kum-bah-yaaaaa...



That 'bout what you were thinking, Z?

Hmmm.... Really?

I want Nighthawk's opinion.

[Downunder Kilt]

You have got to love Artificer's well thought out reasoning. I think it's spot on in the comparison of saxon and highland "rules of dress" (guidelines) With the myriad of colours for hose, tartan, jackets etc, choice of cut and style of jackets, there is plenty of room for individualism in highland dressing.

[Bugbear]

Ah, don't worry about it, MacLowlife, it will set in eventually.

I catch myself using < and > instead of brackets a lot of times, so it's just getting used to the way it all works.

[Tobus]

I think that in many cases, Saxon dressers have internalized their rules (having grown up with them) and don't really see them as rules, just "what's done". Having someone inform them what is appropriate for Highland wear just irks.

Perfectly made point. And I think, if I understand them correctly, that many of our native Scots feel the same way about Highland dress. As Jock Scot and MacMillan of Rathdown have pointed out so many times, they have grown up wearing this attire and just naturally know what's 'right' and what's not. It's only when we who didn't grow up in such an environment start asking what the 'rules' are that they have to start writing down these rules.

It would probably be the same if we were on a forum for Saxon style dress, trying to explain the 'rules' of wearing trousers to people who had only worn loin cloths their whole lives.

[MacLowlife]

We can go back and forth all day ( and have, to my great pleasure) on some of these points, but Tobus makes something clear that was floating around before. Many of the things we talk about are assumed and understood, though they needn't necessarily be. For instance, all of the doublets we discuss have sleeves, bodies of a similar construction ( no pullovers, no collarless, not many pleats, no puffs, or lacings) and a very narrow accepted range of lengths. THCD assumes a narrow range of shirt styles, as well, and shoes that go no further up the leg than the ankle, if that far.

A dress doublet may be tartan, black, blue, or even red or green, but they are seldom orange or brown or striped or polka dotted. Sooner or later, someone may bespeak one in watered silk or brocade, but we will accept it or disdain it based on universally accepted ideas or rules and archetypes. Mostly, we will ask if it looks right or wrong- does it follow the rules.

By contrast, people in the world today wear garments that balloon, garments that stop anywhere from the crotch to the toes, garments that conceal and ones that occasionally expose. And, if you will look in the very back of the "modern dress" closet, back into the part where the labels are hand written and the hangers are forged, you will find all manner of funky stuff. But if I say "pants" or "trousers" most of us will imagine a garment that resembles Levis or at least Gov't Issue Uniform trousers, ca 1960-1980 ( pardon, that is Trousers, Dress, 1960 Pattern). And we know instinctively how to wear them.

What looks "right" comes from what you have seen again and again. Just as somebody can grow up with skinny jeans and turtlenecks or 6 inch lapels and flared legs, somebody did grow up with knee breeches and brocades. We adapt to changing times, but we form our tastes at an early age, as MoR pointed out earlier. What looks "good" can vary, based on our individual shape, the thickness of our wallets, and the limits of our creativity... And the approval of our chosen audience, of course.