TRADITION: let's (re)define it.

[DWFII]

I just want to ask this question...why is it necessary to "(re)define" Traditional Highland Dress?

Is it so that elements that are contemporary, new, or a little...shall we say "questionable" in the Traditional sense, can be folded into the mix?

Doesn't that more or less vitiate the whole idea of "Traditional?"

Wouldn't be just as easy...and perhaps more appropriate...to (re)define "Modern Kilt Wear?"

...another auld crabbit...

[Cowher]

Some people seem to want to equate modern kilt wear (i.e. "non-traditional") with "casual" kilt wear, but I would strongly disagree. This implies that the kilt was never worn except for formal occasions. But remember there was a time when the kilt was the regular day-to-day mode of dress for the Highland male.

That's kind of the point Matt. To say 'modern kilt wear: the way it's worn today' and 'traditional kilt wear: the way it used to be worn' irritates me

If we were to have sub forums that covered -formal -semiformal and -casual that would cover it all.
I don't need to be told that if I wear a tweed jacket and waistcoat with my kilt I'm out of date andthat that style of wears died in 1980

I have heard this before on this forum. Kilt cops?!? I don't need no stinkin kilt cops!!

[seanachie]

Some people seem to want to equate modern kilt wear (i.e. "non-traditional") with "casual" kilt wear, but I would strongly disagree. This implies that the kilt was never worn except for formal occasions. But remember there was a time when the kilt was the regular day-to-day mode of dress for the Highland male.

Well stated and I appreciate the point. I think this actually promotes kilt wearing in that people come to recognize kilts are not just for formal occassions. We frequenty do our shopping on Saturday and when people comment on my kilt this frequently comes into conversation

I tend to define "traditional" as any manner of wearing the kilt that stems organically from the tradition of Highland dress that comes before it. I would define as "non-traditional" any style of kilt-like garment that originates independently, or a style that pointedly departs from, the Highland dress traditions.

Again, a great point. I only had a minute to search and could not locate it but I definitely saw a Utilikilt ad that derided the traditional kilt. Their company statements does not even define their product as a kilt: " We are committed to pioneering a comfortable alternative to trousers by producing “Men’s Unbifurcated Garments” (MUG’s).

So I view myself as being very traditional when I wear the kilt in this way, even though I get the feeling from some on the forum that they would not view it the same way:

[CMcG]

So if we take the time bracket off of the title all will be right with the world...right?
<snip>

In terms of the smaller issues this thread raises, delimiting the time period of Traditional Highland Dress would be sufficient.

I just want to ask this question...why is it necessary to "(re)define" Traditional Highland Dress?

Is it so that elements that are contemporary, new, or a little...shall we say "questionable" in the Traditional sense, can be folded into the mix?

Doesn't that more or less vitiate the whole idea of "Traditional?"

Wouldn't be just as easy...and perhaps more appropriate...to (re)define "Modern Kilt Wear?"

...another auld crabbit...

I believe that it is important -- if not absolutely necessary -- to (re)define the Traditional Highland Dress sub-forum of this website because of a larger issue that is created by a past tense definition. Let me try and delve a little deeper into why the bounded dates suggested by the Traditional Highland Dress sub-forum description presents a problem. It is not necessarily a question about where to post as much as a question of perception.

A certain antiquity is suggested by 1901 (the beginning of the reign of Edward VII) to the 1980's being the period of the traditional kilt. The implication is that THCD is a static, historical style of dress. Overtime, there has been a negative backlash from some members of the forum against the traditional ways and part of that reaction has been framed (at worst) as THCD being a sort of brigadoonish costume.

Tradition can at times appear to be inflexible to a neophyte kilt wearer and specifying an end point to its time period only exacerbates the problem. On the contrary, there is a marvelous range of options within THCD. I would liken it to learning a language, where one must learn grammar, spelling, syntax, vocabulary, etc before one can be creative...

As for folding "questionably" traditional things into this sub-forum, that can provide lively and spirited debate! There have been many things posted here (like leopard fur sporrans or skull and crossbone symbols) that I would not have thought traditional until someone enlightened me Similarly, there are things that people might think are traditional (like white hose) but aren't. That's exactly the sort of thing that fuels discussion.

THCD is a living tradition that is still evolving, albeit slowly and with an eye to the classic. There is a straight and narrow, which is clear cut and can be stated as "rules." There is also a border-zone or grey area to could be the edge of traditional or the beginning of modern...

While I'm interested in discussing modern kilt wear and wear a Utilikilt around the house, I try to dress more or less traditionally when I go out. But I'm still learning and perhaps I don't look as traditional as say, Jock Scot.

Here is a picture of me at a wedding last summer. To say that it is modern kilt wear just because it was taken recently is somewhat of a tautology. There are elements that aren't entirely traditional either... but that was before I got my ABF tie

[DWFII]

I have heard this before on this forum. Kilt cops?!? I don't need no stinkin kilt cops!!

No disrespect intended, but I think you're confusing the issue. No one is talking about "kilt cops."

But this is a discussion forum. By necessity, it has themes and sub-themes..topics and sub-topics.

What we're talking about is limiting a discussion to certain themes, parameters and understanding so that we can have intelligent discussion without having to (re)define our lexicon or those understanding constantly.

We do this in every topic...whether it be the Pub or DIY, etc..

Those who are interested in the discussion...within the parameters defined by the topic...participate in it, constrained by those parameters.

Those who are not interested, given those limitations, participate in another discussion, often tailored specifically for their interests.

How much more fair can that be?

[Pyper]

I always thought the point of the two forums was to separate discussion between any form of highland dress staring in the Victorian period up to the present day, including what Matt posted photos of, from discussion of garments like the Utilikilt.

To my mind, it does make sense to put those type garments into a separate sub forum.

[Tony]

I always thought the point of the two forums was to separate discussion between any form of highland dress staring in the Victorian period up to the present day, including what Matt posted photos of, from discussion of garments like the Utilikilt.

To my mind, it does make sense to put those type garments into a separate sub forum.

tried that.
shot down in flames.

[DWFII]

As a Forum Administrator myself, I might add that Job One for Admin is to limit "spirited" debates and disharmony....without, of course, creating something so PC or so bland that it leaves everyone with a sour taste in their mouths. Of course, that's why there is more than one topic--to give everyone their "room" without denying or taking away the rights and understanding of those already involved.

Personally, having been here for a while, I like the Traditional Highland Dress thread just the way it is...I think it was originally created for folks like me.

And to be frank, I am wary of (re)defining it.

[DWFII]

I always thought the point of the two forums was to separate discussion between any form of highland dress staring in the Victorian period up to the present day, including what Matt posted photos of, from discussion of garments like the Utilikilt.

To my mind, it does make sense to put those type garments into a separate sub forum.

+100...what he said.

[creagdhubh]

Well said Matt, and I agree!!!

Cheers,