FAO Jock Scot / Phil re: Tat and the Scottish Identity

[Mael Coluim]

I received a warm welcome by the Scots on my kilted holiday in the Auld country on my ’09 visit. I am sure that will be repeated next month, when I return.

When I open my mouth it is quite clear, I am not playing Scotsman. Many years ago, when I visited with Mum’s uncle, he would say in his Scottish brogue, “boy, would you speak the King’s English”.

Yes, I am proud of Scottish heritage. The kilt is comfortable to wear. Both reasons make a powerful combination to wear the kilt. Some don’t understand that? Oh well, there are bigger mysteries in life, isn’t there?

BTW, the most who don’t understand it live in the US. Usually they are male; the ladies give their approval shown in various affectionate ways!

[piperdbh]

I know that many of Scots descent participate here and that the most likely reason they are not living in Scotland is the shameful way in which their forebears were dispossessed, stripped of what little they had and left with no choice but to leave the land of their forefathers and find a precarious living in some far off country. So why any of them should ever, for even one fleeting moment, pay the slightest respect or show any interest whatever in the doings of the descendants of the perpetrators of their banishment is completely beyond me. I have no doubt that those very forebears would have done their utmost to assimilate quickly into the society they now found themselves in and would have had nothing but resentment towards the instruments of their misfortune and perhaps have great difficulty with their descendants revering chiefs and the like.

One of the reasons that we show interest and try to find out about our ancestors is that we don't know the reasons why they left their homelands. Generally folks try to put the best "spin" on a story that they can, and Americans are taught that their ancestoprs came to this country in search of "a better life". Most of us don't know about the Clearances, the doings of Chiefs and/or governments, or even the economic conditions of our forebears. That's one reason I like to read the threads on this Forum: there are people here who actually know what they're talking about, rather than just knowing what they've read (or not read) in a history book.

[Jock Scot]

PIPERDBH.

I hear what you say and rest assured I am well practised with this very conversation and topic. I have discussed this, many times with many Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders around my dinner table with a good port "oiling" the vocal chords. We have always been wiser by the end of the discussion and we are still firm friends.

Should you venture across the pond you will always find a firm and friendly welcome from the Scots in general and me in particular. Yes we may not quite understand all the fuss that you all seem to make about all this, rest assued a warm welcome for you all, there will most certainly be.

[piperdbh]

And I would be honored to host you and your Mrs.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

So the Scots say "good for you, so why don't you get on with being Americans and tone down the Scots bit." "why the kilt?" Yes of course be aware of your roots, but..................

So explain to me/us why Americans go in for yes, as far as we are concerned, all this playing at being a Scot? Why can't you, be Americans, dress as Americans, whilst celebrating your assorted and undoubted roots? You appear to want it both ways and this idea is not understood and genuinely not understood by many over here.

I might suggest that you may be getting a somewhat skewed perspective. We are, after all, on a kilt forum, where just being here means that you are at least highly interested in wearing a kilt, probably own one, possibly own several, and are interested in wearing the kilt moreso than the next guy.

The reality is that most Americans of Scottish descent don't own a kilt and probably have very little interest in ever doing so. Most Americans of Scottish descent who do own a kilt wear it perhaps once or twice a year to their local Highland Games. If they are very interested in Scottish culture they may belong to a local St. Andrews Society and wear the kilt once or twice a year to a formal dinner.

It is a very rare specimen of American-Scot indeed who wears the kilt any more often than that. (Just as it is a rare specimen of Scot who wears the kilt on a daily basis).

I also would suggest that when an American of Scottish descent wears the kilt (or engages in any other activity which celebrates his ethnic heritage) he does not view it in any way as downplaying his American identity, but in fact it is a way of celebrating it. America is a nation of immigrants, after all, and when we put on the kilt we often are thinking not only of our anscetors that may have lived in the Highlands 400 years ago, but also our anscestors who arrived on the shores of the Cape Fear River 200 years ago to carve out a new life, etc.

I know that when I don my Armstrong tartan I don't think of my Border Reiver anscestors whom I never met; rather I think of my grandmother who was raised in southern Georgia.

Norman blood is running pretty strongly through many Scots veins, but we don't hold a Norman gathering every year where we try to pop an arrow into an effigy of King Harold's eye!

Fair enough, maybe not with Normans. But then again I don't see Americans of Norman descent holding Norman festivals, either! But I know many Scots of Viking descent do celebrate that culture at the Up Helly Aa festival (recognizing the fact that Shetland has quite a unique history and culture all its own).

I would suggest that some cultures are simply more easily celebrated than others. The Scots have a colorful and vibrant culture that makes it easy to celebrate.

[Jock Scot]

I know that when I don my Armstrong tartan I don't think of my Border Reiver anscestors whom I never met; rather I think of my grandmother who was raised in southern Georgia.

Matt you illustrate perfectly exactly the point that many Scots fail to understand.

Yes indeed there is a danger of having a skewed perspective and I am well aware of that and my post NO 33 on this thread might cover that point. Nevertheless this is a kilt website and this interesting conversation was started here.

I think your Viking example and connection is hardly relevant to this conversation as Shetlanders are notoriously pro Viking and regard themselves as hardly typical of the rest of Scotland.

[seanachie]

but I am reminded in some of the postings when I see words like history and heritage that bonds to such things may be Scottish but not exclusively Scottish other Celts have historical events and bonds to events and momentous times that have links to the kilt as well. I can remember some of these back to a young age. This does not disrespect or ignore any culture or history it only adds to it.

[Geoff Withnell]

Yes indeed this is a very interesting discussion made all the better with the respect for all that is being shown.

This is what the Scots------OK the ones that I know and the ones that I know know and so on-------cannot grasp.

Yes we quite understand that we all come from somewhere and our roots are very important to some and that goes for all of us one way or another whether we are Latvian, Polish Japanese, Dutch, American, Scots, wherever. So we are all reading from the same book. So far.

Now some Americans, in this example, will have Scottish roots and of course some wish to be aware of them and celebrate their contribution to their new country. Then in the next breath Matt here voices a common theme voiced elsewhere on this website says , "but we are Americans and with Scots roots". No doubt he is right.

So the Scots say "good for you, so why don't you get on with being Americans and tone down the Scots bit." "why the kilt?" Yes of course be aware of your roots, but..................

Now if you take me for example, If you delve into my roots, I have English,German, Australian, Austrian, Russian, Norman and Scots roots. When I visit Normandy I don't ride off the ferry at Caen on a bicycle wearing a black beret, black and white hooped shirt with a string of onions around my neck. Nor do I dress like a Russian, German etc. I visit as a Scot, I am a Scot and I dress as a Scot.

So explain to me/us why Americans go in for yes, as far as we are concerned, all this playing at being a Scot? Why can't you, be Americans, dress as Americans, whilst celebrating your assorted and undoubted roots? You appear to want it both ways and this idea is not understood and genuinely not understood by many over here.

Norman blood is running pretty strongly through many Scots veins, but we don't hold a Norman gathering every year where we try to pop an arrow into an effigy of King Harold's eye!

If I or my ancestors had been treated as badly as some of your ancestors have been I am dammed if I would want anything to do with the place that had been so dreadful to my ancestors and in fact I feel nothing but contempt to a couple of countries that were not kind to my ancestors and have absolutely no wish to contribute to their well-being today whatsoever. I am well aware of my roots in those countries though.

Alright in a nutshell, you might understand why you do what you do, but many Scots don't. And the Scottish Tourist Board are about to kill me!!!!

Let first add that I greatly value your input, but let me try to explain my viewpoint, as I think it may be shared by some of the other Yanks here. When I am in a kilt, as I normally am when I am out and about, I am not playing at being a Scot. I *am* dressed as an American. This is how this American gets dressed. It's not a "costume". Do I try to present a good appearance? Of course! Possibly a bit more than I do when I'm dressed in trousers, as I know I may be getting more attention. Is the increased attention the reason for wearing a kilt. In all honesty, it's at least part. Just because I've been married almost 40 years doesn't mean seeing a good looking lass smile at me doesn't please me. But that's not the whole of it. It's a great many things. It looks good. It's comfortable and practical. It celebrates a portion of my hertage. At seventh and last, because I want to and I can! Since I sometimes wear non-traditional kilts, I'm sure some of my outfits would not particularly please you. However, I hope that you will take note that, even if I do not follow quite the same standards as you, I am not dispensing with standards entirely, and trying to present a descent appearance.
I hope we can meet at some point, I would like to stand you to a glass or two of whatever libation suits you, and toast both our homelands.

[Jock Scot]

Geoff, I would be honoured and delighted to share a wee dram, or two, with you at any time.

[Phil]

This thread has strayed far from its original theme and, although that is hardly new here, it might be time to return to the original subject which was the debasement of a culture by the commercialisation of the symbols and traditions of that culture.