POLL-Do you want this tartan?

[mookien]

I voted yes, however ... {read the entire comment above} ... it at least gives us a place to start from.

Hear, hear!. I believe that you and I are on the same page of the playbook.

I, too, think the St. Ninian's Day tartan is exemplary - simple, elegant, and with the colors and sett clearly described in the Registration notes to help explain its design elements and associations. That alone might serve to reduce any ambiguity associated with the name of the subject tartan, assuming, of course, it "materializes".

Personally, I like all the names you suggested, though I think any moniker containing the word "Christian" will create difficulties, and as paulhenry has pointed out, any name with weighty historical associations like "Nicene Creed" is likely to engender controversy as well.

Your notion of uniting Christians resonates with me, but if myriad denominations cannot unite, a Christian-themed tartan is not likely to make a huge difference. In fact it will probably be regarded by some Christians as a false idol.

I am not knowledgeable or picky about colors (eg I don't even know what the liturgical colors are), so I'll leave that to the experts. I would hope that they would be indicative in some clear way, like brown for the cross, red for Christ's blood, blue for Hope, etc.

[creagdhubh]

I voted no, but wanted to explain why, instead of just an anonymous no.

For starters, as Zardoz pointed out, it's hard to ask people to commit to a tartan that hasn't been designed yet. I realize that there's cost involved in just the design, and it would be difficult to put the money down on designing it without any feedback on whether you'd be able to recuperate that cost. But by the same token, you're asking people to commit to hundreds of dollars worth of tartan material that they may end up not liking.

But more importantly, for me, I think the "tartan proliferation" today is getting out of hand. There doesn't need to be a unique tartan for every possible organization or way of thinking. Christianity has a plethora of existing symbols that one can wear to identify oneself as a believer, so this seems like a bit of a redundant move. I kind of lean toward the traditional mindset that the really meaningful tartans out there are the original clan tartans, as well as a few district/regional/historical tartans. Designing new tartans outside of this context seems to muddy the waters, so to speak. Meaningful though they may be, I just don't think it's appropriate to tartanize every affiliation we have in life.

So while I applaud your motivation and reasoning for this concept, I have to say, I would not be interested. And the weird thing is, it feels bad to say that, since this is a positive idea, brought forth in a spirit of brotherly camaraderie amongst fellow Christians (of which I am one). My gut feels like I'm saying no to religion somehow, even though I'm only saying no to the idea of a future tartan.

Agreed.

[davidlpope]

[/I][/B]

For most people, the term "Christian" no longer refers to those whose faith might be stated in the Nicene Creed, but rather, to a populist religion with some decidedly divergent beliefs and values.

***. Without some "sanctioning-body" to officially approve such a tartan, the "meaning/symbolism/identification benefit" of the tartan would likely be so broad as to not "mean" anything at all.

[For internal reflection only, not meant as a invitation to debate this point.
In my own mind, I'm not sure that a Christian-ID tartan for the purpose of buying *another* kilt squares with either John 13:35 or Luke 3:11...]

I'm totally in agreement with my UK colleges on this one. I bet that if one did a poll over here most people's reaction would be 'why?'.

I know I'm getting on my hobby horse but the tartan for everything and every occasion drives me mad but I guess it's a feature of the need to belong rather than wearing something truly old and original simply because it's a beautiful design.

***. Tartans like the one proposed often end up as orphans. Much better, I think, to wear a clan tartan, military tartan, district tartan, or historic fashion tartan.

[Burly Brute]

Just as a point of clarification, the use of the cross as a symbol for Christianity goes back to the fourth century AD, based on archaeological evidence (stone monuments, etc.), and almost certainly earlier than that, if one considers the cross in other forms. So, not quite the "recent history" that you might suggest.

But I agree with your suggestions, that a symbol of one's faith could easily be incorporated into one's Highland attire in other ways. I, for one, own a Celtic Cross kilt pin. I also often wear a lapel pin with a religious meaning (I own several given to me for service to my parish). I have a wonderful Chi Rho belt buckle that Tyger Forge made for me!

Something like that could easily be fashioned into a cap badge, a sporran badge, etc.

By the way, did you know that the most probable origin for the Celtic Cross is the Chi Rho? I saw this demonstrated once in a book about early Celtic Cross monuments in the British Isles (that I wish I had bought). The Chi Rho is usually shown like this, with the two characters one over the other.


But this book showed some early British carvings with the Chi (X) inside the loop of the Rho (P). I can't find an image, you'll have to use your imagination. But that's pretty close, visually speaking, to a cross with a circle around the top, so it was a fairly quick artistic transition to make -- especially once the cross began to be used more widely as a symbol for the Christian faith.

Very accurate Matt, and from my research the reason it doesnt go back earlier is because crucifiction was still practiced quite regularly. I think I saw a documentary that said it was the cave dwelling hittites that first used the cross as a symbol of Christianity (no evidence or support at this time, just best recollection).

Also! Matt! Could you PM me about all the Chi Rho info you have as far as belt buckles, pins, etc. A group of about 20 men at my University have started a Christian fraternity (Chi Rho) and would probably be interested in bulk orders. It's been a long process, but we have our charter, approval from school, and have put in for our 501 (c) or whatever. Let me know! Thanks man.





Biblemonkey,

I vote yes because I think it is a great idea, and people register/create tartans for a lot lesser of reasons. If I have the funds at the time, I will gladly contribute all I can. And I will also contribute time, if you need help with anything. Let me know brother.

Zach

[creagdhubh]

Very interesting thread indeed. I applaud the professionalism, honesty, tact, and kindness expressed by all who have participated in this thread topic, thus far. As we have all heard before; more often than not, any time religion is interjected into conversation, or the basis for conversation, the end result has the potential to turn rather ugly. I think this particular thread proves that stereotype wrong. I am proud to be among you. Well done chaps, well done.

Yours aye,

[biblemonkey]

Hmmm...Not sure about these poll numbers, but I'll leave the poll up for a while and we'll see what we shall see.

Very interesting thread indeed. I applaud the professionalism, tact, and kindness expressed by all who have participated in this thread topic, thus far. As we have all heard before, more often than not, any time religion is interjected into conversation, or the basis for conversation, the end result has the potential to turn rather ugly. I think this particular thread proves that stereotype wrong. Well done chaps, well done.

Yours aye,

I couldn't agree more, sir. Very heartwarming.

[rlloyd]

Hmmm...Not sure about these poll numbers, but I'll leave the poll up for a while and we'll see what we shall see.



I couldn't agree more, sir. Very heartwarming.

I could easily be wrong, but I can't help but think some of the No votes were because they thought this poll was asking for a commitment to buy a length of cloth even before seeing the finished product.

[biblemonkey]

I could easily be wrong, but I can't help but think some of the No votes were because they thought this poll was asking for a commitment to buy a length of cloth even before seeing the finished product.

If that is what is concerning people then I would jut like to re-iterate that this is not a commitment to buy before seeing, just a "would you contribute to the project and get some cloth if you liked the finished product?" so I can get an idea if I would have to be alone in bearing the financial burden of such a venture if it were to be undertaken. I did not even want to move forward with design and registering if I was the only one interested.

[Meggers]

I dont know. I see both sides. I see the "no" that many are saying due to it feeling a little unneccessary, but I also see the pride in wearing one. I ask myself, if there was a Muslim tartan, would I want to wear one?...I dont think I would want to. I dont know.

BUT I think the idea is kinda nice....I see both sides.

[CDNSushi]

I'm afraid that this particular tartan idea does not really interest me. I feel that the concept is a little too broad or general for me to be able to find some sort of draw or be able to identify with it. Not that a personal connection is absolutely necessary, but it does help somewhat.