"Balmoral" Doublet Help?

[MacSpadger]

post deleted.

[Downunder Kilt]

In Australia Black tie and White tie mean the same as in the UK. There is of course, also Court Dress and Military/Police Mess dress. The Sherriffmuir has been mentioned in relation to black tie events and I believe this can be worn unbuttoned, with a waistcoat and remain well within the realms of Black tie as, I believe CMcG's can, with a waistcoat and no belt.

MacSpadger, you mention that you were last at a black tie event that made a toast to the Queen and Regiment. From this comment I would guess that you were at a Regimental Ball or similiar. I have, in the past, found that Black tie at these events are usually far more regimented than at cilvillian Black tie events

[CMcG]

I also can’t get my head around people saying that a jacket like this should be worn/can be worn unbuttoned to "black tie" events. It's already been explained to us over here that black tie has a different meaning in the USA, ( and now, apparently, also Australia), but I still can't quite get the "unbuttoned" business.
I am asking this because this thread is in the “traditional” section: This jacket is designed to be worn with a belt over the waist, so why would you unbutton it?
Would you take the belt off?
Or would you just not wear a belt with it?
If the latter, then why not just wear an Argyll?

The idea for wearing a Balmoral doublet open for less formal events, came from the Highland Clans retail website where they say "It can be worn less formally unbuttoned - in this case the belt would be worn round the kilt (under the jacket)." Thanks to Jock Scot's explanation, I think they mean less formal than white tie/full dress, but still black tie formal. Here (again) is the link to their page:
http://www.highlandclans.co.uk/Balmo...t_Doublet.html

If the latter, then why not just wear an Argyll?

I already have an Argyll jacket (some might call it a Braemar because of the flap cuffs, rather than gauntlet style) and below is a picture of how I wore it to a Burn's Supper here in Hong Kong. The Balmoral jacket was purchased because it was inexpensive and I like having options:

Even with an Argyll, where would you wear one “unbuttoned”? I am looking right now at the programme/menu of the last formal function I attended, there were about 150 kilted men present, mostly in black Argyll's but two of the "Old & Bold" were wearing Sheriffmuir Jackets with belts over the top. (We are talking about two men in their late 80's here, and that's their understanding of evening dress, from their time period).

After supper, in print, permission is given to “loose a button”. As it was a big dinner, that’s understandable. There was then a medal presentation and an MSR from a piper. Buttons were then firmly back in place for the official toasts, the Queen and the Regiment. I'm no expert on sartorial correctness, I'm just a scunner from a cooncil hoose that dis' fit he's telt, but I've been doing what I'm told in the name of tradition for a long time.

Why and where would “unbuttoned” suit a formal occasion?

In real life, I've never seen anyone button an Argyll jacket, either tweed or black barathea. On Xmarks, I've seen countless pictures of Argyll jackets being worn unbuttoned and only very rarely buttoned. I have been told by people more knowledgeable than I that unbuttoned is the way to go.

I'm no expert on sartorial correctness either and certainly don't have as much experience as you... are we talking about the same jacket?

[creagdhubh]

The Prince Charlie is a jacket designed to be worn “unbuttoned” and that’s one of the reasons why I have never owned one, I don’t see the point in whichtin’ aroon’ in a jaiket that disnae’ dae’ fit a jaiket’s supposed tae’ dae’ an’ hae’ ivvery ither cheil’ smekkin’ Ah’m a feil gype.

Hahahaha! Quite right, MacSpadger!

Well said mate,

[Jock Scot]

CMcG.

I have had what I am about to say confirmed, over time, by many on this website, so this may help clear the fog!

In UK terms, "dress" means formal in the terms we are talking about above.

As I understand it, in the USA and Canada it appears that "dress" means something rather less formal. For example, a smart shirt used for a funeral or business wear with a suit is often described here by you chaps as a "dress" shirt.

For us over here in the UK, a "dress" shirt is a formal shirt to be worn with formal attire.

[CMcG]

CMcG.

I have had what I am about to say confirmed, over time, by many on this website, so this may help clear the fog!

In UK terms, "dress" means formal in the terms we are talking about above.

As I understand it, in the USA and Canada it appears that "dress" means something rather less formal. For example, a smart shirt used for a funeral or business wear with a suit is often described here by you chaps as a "dress" shirt.

For us over here in the UK, a "dress" shirt is a formal shirt to be worn with formal attire.

Once again separated by a common language, eh?

[artificer]

Jock, you are correct that, in the US at least, "Dress" means you might be forced to put on a tie. I believe it comes from little boys complaining that they have to get "dressed up" for company.

Semi-formal is a term (badly) used to mean a level of dress from lounge/business suit up to black tie. It is also known as Black Tie Optional. As you're rather fond of saying, it is neither fish-nor-fowl.

I've never been to a white tie event, as I rarely travel in such rarefied circles. I have been to a number of events that were either Black Tie or Black Tie Optional (Semi-formal).
Given the nature of things as they are here in the US, Semi-formal means that a few people inevitably show up in khakis and a polo shirt.

ith:

[Father Bill]

A dress shirt likely has a pleated front, possibly pique. The collar may be laid down or recently wingtips have come back into vogue.

There are always those who like to push the meaning of words. They have no idea the damage they do. When words cease to have meanings there also ceases to be any way to communicate. The problems we so often experience on this forum are only a small symptom of that.

The idea that "I'll do as I d___ well please" in some cultures is a major weakness and error that cuts us adrift, isolates, and separates us one from one another. It isn't freedom; it is a failure to cooperate that in fact becomes a new kind of prison. What a loss from large egos.

Here endeth the sermon.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I very rarely see the Argyle jacket worn buttoned. In fact, I just did a Google image search for argyle jackets, and on the first screen saw 36 images of the jacket being worn open (unbuttoned) and only 2 images of it being worn buttoned. The majority of these photos are catalog photos, showing the jackets being modeled, presumably the way they are intended to be worn.

[BCAC]

Just to hi-jack this post a bit further, I think that most kilt jackets, with the exception of the Balmoral and Montrose doublets, look totally wrong when buttoned up. When I was a child/teenager in Scotland I was made to know by relatives and friends that unbuttoned was the way it should be.