Question for those who only wear tartans in their bloodline

[Phil]

It is certainly touching to see such lengths being explored, even to the extent of possible DNA testing, before choosing a suitable tartan to wear. No doubt this is either out of a desire to explore one's roots or from a respect for Scottish customs and traditions. As to actual clan membership, however, unless one is a clan chief or a close relation of one with a proven genealogical record I doubt that there is any real way of proving descent from amember of a particular clan. A surname helps to point you in the right direction and no-one is going to dispute your right to wear the particular tartan that your name relates to. That alone, however, is no proof of clan membership as people often moved about the country for various reasons such as persecution, work etc. and, as nobody actually 'joined' a clan or was entered in a 'membership list' like joining a golf club there is little more than a possible association with a name and locality to rely upon as the best you can do to decide.

[HenryT]

Very well said Phil. *** as they say.

[Tam Piperson]

I wouldn't fret too much about seeking any greater justification for wearing a certain tartan more than choosing one that serves to identify the surname that you happen to bear.

The idea of named tartans seems to have first originated with the fact that each of the old Highland regiments wore some specific variation of the Government tartan, with distinguishing overstripes or color variations to the original pattern. Since the Highland regiments were typically named for their founders, the tartans worn by those regiments took on the regiment's name; i.e. the Gordon Highlander's tartan for example, or the Fraser Highlander's tartan, or John Mackenzie, Lord MacLeod's Highlander's tartan. or John Murray the Duke of Atholl's Highlander's tartan.

Within a decade or so of the begining of the 19th century the idea that tartans bore the names of certain Highland regiments came to be transferred to the notion that tartans were associated with certain Scottish clans; and thus the notion of named Clan tartans was born.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, the DNA tests that are currently available probably wouldn't be able to pinpoint either an exact clan association or even a precise geographical origin, since many clans are descended from a common ancestor whose descendants then went on to found other clans.

Even the chiefs of some clans are not direct patrilineal descendants of the founder of the clan. The late John MacLeod of MacLeod for example was actually born John Wolrige-Gordon, a younger son of Joan Walter and Captain Robert Wolrige-Gordon. His mother, Joan being one of two daughters born to the late Dame Flora MacLeod and her husband Hubert Walter.

Since Dame Flora inherited the chiefship of the Clan MacLeod from her father Sir Reginald MacLeod, the line would have died off in Dame Flora's side of the family and the chiefship would have passed to one of her MacLeod cousins. In order to prevent this, her grandson, John Wolrige-Gordon, legally changed his surname to MacLeod of MacLeod and thus claimed the chiefship of the Clan MacLeod when his maternal grandmother died.

The Chief of the Clan Hay, Merlin Hay, the Earl of Erroll, likewise was born Merlin Moncreiffe, the eldest son of Sir Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk and his wife Diana Hay, 23rd Countess of Erroll. Merlin later changed his surname to his mother's maiden name of Hay so that he could claim the Earldom of Erroll; while his younger brother, Peregrine was allowed to inherit the chiefship of the Moncreiffes from their father on his death.

[Father Bill]

To be honest, I find that I'm confused by the "colour" part of this discussion. Why would one care about the colour of his tartan? It's his tartan and is like a name tag, not like a set of living room curtains (although that idea has a certain possibility too, I guess - wife not withstanding.) But in reality, true and loyal Scots don't choose a tartan; they wear their own and they do so with unlimited, unspoken, and unmitigated pride.

[David Thorpe]

But in reality, true and loyal Scots don't choose a tartan; they wear their own and they do so with unlimited, unspoken, and unmitigated pride.

Well said, Padre.

[duffy794]

i know the DNA testing is nto a cure all and depends alot on the database, however I feel it can point you in the right direction.

Since I have not been able to figure out (to my satisfaction) which one is the best one to wear I had decided to choose from all the ones which I had a surname linkage to. Since I had some very good ones to choose from (Gunn/Colquhoun) for one color scheme I thought it would be nice to vary my wardrobe and have another color.

I want a nice kilt but I do not want to spend 600 dollars on something and find out it is not the "best" one 5 years from now. (sorry I can't just go with surname even if it is as good as anything else, the accountant/auditor in me won't let me)

If I had a really solid claim (to me) to one clan it would be that one no matter what. Yall have given me a lot to think about and I really do appreciate it.

I guess I was also looking for a kilt to tie me over until my genealogical research was done and I was good with which one was best, but all the good arguments have made me think. Dang it! lol

yall have a great day!

[Domehead]

I think you may be missing a subtlety of Phil's point (forgive me if you aren't). What he is saying (not in contradiction to Father Bill) is domestic migration, septs and branch families, political, social or practical loyalties make it difficult to determine "origin". You may run into the "wall of 1600" in your geneology and have to choose an arbitrary origin - then what?

It has been recommened many times here - recently, to me directly - joining clan associations as a sign of respect, furthers a relation to the "named" tartan you wish to wear.

e.g: I had an uncle whom I actually knew (RIP) named Macinally. Macinally is a sept of both Buchanan and MacFarlane. I know he immigrated from Ayr around 1925-27 and married into the dominant Robertson family. He was very important to the establishment of our family's farm in the USA. It is important to me that he is remembered/represented by myself & my family going forward.
However, I do not have the money to pursue a complete geneology of his family to determine whether his lines go back to Buchanan or MacFarlane. Yet, Ayr being slightly closer to historic Buchanan territory and domestic migration being what it was, I joined the Buchanan Clan Association as a sign of respect. In effect, I am establishing posthumous loyalty for my uncle with Clan Buchanan regardless of what his GGG Granda may have expressed.
This is not to disrespect what may have come before. It simply balances the potential pitfalls of geneology & DNA with History and finance. Ultimately, there is no guarantee Uncle Macinally wouldn't have shifted from Buchanan to MacFarlane (or vice-versa) needs dependant anyway. Just my two-cents.

Your sir-name and its scots connection, maiden-name and its scots connection or what your gandma "beat" into are all justifiable on their face to wear a particular tartan. But, as Father Bill says, generally with an established Scots connection of any kind, you don't choose a tartan - it chooses you.

[Tuirc]

I wanted to chime in on the DNA aspect of relationship to a tartan/Clan. I recieved my 67 marker test back in June of this year. They send you the results sets at a time. So, I first received a 12 marker result, then a 24 marker, then a 37 marker and finally a 67 marker result. It was fairly clear, for me, when the 12 marker test came back what clan I was part of. Of the hundreds of results returned, about 90% were MacLarens or MacLaren sept names. If you get a result like that, you have some clarity I would think. By the time I got to the 67 marker results, I had all McLaurins and McLarens with 2 MacGregors (whose female forbears may have some explaining to do) and a couple of Gows. Gow is an occupational name. It turns out a Gow is a Smith in Gaelic.

As to moving around in Scotland and that muddying the waters as to which clan a forebear may have belonged, that's no doubt true. I know that before they emigrated, my ancestors lived in several different places (most of which were close by, but some that weren't). For instance, I know my 6th g gf lived in the Appin area, but his son had his first son while living on the Isle of Skye in 1760. Afterward, the rest of his children were born in the Appin area. Why was he on the Isle of Skye in 1760? Dunno. I doubt it was a wee vacation. Given the times, the '45 was only 14 years gone, and my clan and especially the Appin area was out heavily for the Bonnie Prince, it could have been seen as safer on Skye than in Appin (especially after the Appin murder). These things are difficult to say with any degree of certainty.

The question that plagues me in this regard, is that I'm a McLaurin, sept of Clan MacLaren. Appin is not in a traditional MacLaren held land. The land was held by the Stewarts of Appin. But, Clan Stewart of Appin's first chief Dugald Stewart was from the union of a MacLaren woman and a Stewart. And, the two clans were solid allies for centuries. So, did it matter that a McLaurin lived in Stewart lands? Were they still adherents to clan MacLaren or were they adherents to clan Stewart of Appin? Ah dinnae ken. For me, I just took the simple route. I'm a McLaurin from as far back as they can figure with DNA, so I'm wearing clan MacLaren tartan and for clothing purposes, the rest of it be d*mned.

I totally agree about the wall of 1600. Everyone thank Oliver Cromwell! I go back to 1590. Then the trail ends.

[Domehead]

Tuirc,
Well said. Vey good post and interesting anecdote.

While in danger of abusing a dead horse, there is another layer...
You have access to an actual piece of scientific, i.e. practically irrefutable, information determining patronage. Those of us whom eminate from the "beaten over the head with family history/legend/myth frequently stumble into the following:

On 15 NOV 2012, my father and I went to my Aunt's house (father's older sister) - the keeper of all the family material. While sorting three cardboard suitcases once belonging to my Grandma, we found a small article from a local newspaper re: my Uncle Macinally's death. He (McInally) was born in 1926 - not immigrated in 1925-1927. He did'nae immigrate until after WWII (Highland Light Infantry). And, he was born in Cowdenbeath - the lowlands yes, but not Ayrshire - much closer to our specific Robertson family seat in Methvyn.

As for my intentions per an homage, nothing changes. He's still a respected family member (RIP) & Scots McInally; now he's a Veteran. We also know, from correspondence, his relationship to our Robertson's pre-date his marriage to my Aunt (1952).

I'm enviuos you get to 1590. I get to the early 18th Century on the Liddell (Scots - not English) side of our "diaspora" - GGGGranda and it terms.

Well done.