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  1. #31
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    Foist!
    Rev'd Father Bill White: Mostly retired Parish Priest & former Elementary Headmaster. Lover of God, dogs, most people, joy, tradition, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Canadian Sinclair with solid Welsh and other heritage.

  2. #32
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    Foist? ... well yes but history is seldom that simple. Welcomed by the minority but imposed on the majority would be more correct. James VI reintroduced bishops into the Church of Scotland in 1584 in an attempt bring it under his royal control. At this time there were both Calvinistic-Presbyterian and Episcopal parties in the Church of Scotland.

    His son, Charles I, tried to introduce a Scottish version of the Book of Common Prayer in 1637 and had it strenuously rejected by the Covenanters. The Covenanters were horribly persecuted by the state for this opposition. The majority of those at the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland rejected both bishops and the Prayer Book in 1638. Charles I tried to impose his will by force using Scottish Royalists and English forces but there was very little real fighting. By 1641 Charles had to accept that the majority of the Church of Scotland would have neither bishops nor the Prayer Book ... and by this time he had bigger things to worry about: the civil war!

    However, in 1689 there were still bishops in the Church of Scotland. They refused to swear allegiance to William of Orange while James VII still lived and had not abdicated. Finally, in 1690, the Church of Scotland split into two distinct streams: the majority Presbyterian; the minority Episcopalian, but even then, with Presbyterianism dominant, many Episcopalian clergy continued to serve their Church of Scotland congregations.

    Presbyterianism was now perceived as loyal to the crown. The Episcopalians, however, because of their association with Jacobitism were now seen as a threat. Following the 1715 and 1745 Jacobite risings, it was now the Episcopalians who were horribly persecuted by the state, as the Covenanters had been before them!

    There was a highland-lowland dimension to all of this. Support for Episcopalianism and Jacobitism tended to be stronger in the highlands. Presbyterianism and the more radical political and religious views found more favour in the lowlands.
    It's coming yet for a' that,
    That Man to Man, the world o'er,
    Shall brothers be for a' that. - RB

  3. #33
    Phil is offline Membership Revoked for repeated rule violations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacRobert's Reply View Post
    Foist? ... well yes but history is seldom that simple.
    Indeed, and without going into religion in too great a detail. such establishment attitudes were undoubtedly responsible for the Pilgrim Fathers' re-location to the New World followed later by Scottish and Irish Presbyterians wishing to follow their religious beliefs without interference from the State. Even today, bishops of the Anglican church sit in the unelected House of Lords and legislate upon the laws of the land. Because they look upon the sovereign of the day as their supreme master, between them and God, you really have to ask how objective their views can be in relation to matters spiritual - particularly if those views may not coincide with those of their political masters. I should add that elevation to the higher ranks of the episcopacy is a matter for the political leaders of the day in their capacity as acting on behalf of the Crown.

  4. #34
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    I am sure you will all proceed with caution here, keeping in mind that a discussion of historical religious fact is acceptable whilst editorialising is not.


  5. #35
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    Hmm. Back to the word, "Kirk"...

    ...In Deutsh, "Kirche"...

    ..(keer-shuh) , commonly designates the church structure and is not denomination-specific (and the word is feminine).

  6. #36
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    Mike_Oettle is offline Oops, it seems this member needs to update their email address
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    The word being discussed actually derives from a Greek expression, doma kiriakon (“house of the Lord”), which passed into the Roman/Romance language (late Latin) as kirikon. It was taken up into Germanic long before the Germanic speakers generally had been converted to Christianity, and so passed into use in Germany itself, the Low Countries, Scandinavia and Britain.
    As a Germanic word (Kirche [German], kerk [Dutch, Afrikaans], kirk [Norwegian, Scots], church [English]) it has always meant both “a building for worship” and “the whole body of believers”.
    In this respect it is distinct from the Latin ecclesia (Greek ekklesia), which refers to people called out to follow Christ, and in turn is a concept borrowed from Hebrew.

    Regarding the Scottish Episcopalians, quite aside from their political position within Scotland, they were greatly valued by the Anglican Communion in other countries. Episcopal clergy (fleeing Scotland because of one or another kind of persecution) were welcomed by the Church of England, and by the new Anglican/Episcopal churches in North America and the other countries of the Empire.
    Scottish clergy played a significant role in building up the Anglican Church in Southern Africa, as well as elsewhere.
    Regards,
    Mike
    The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life.
    [Proverbs 14:27]

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