Enlarged Sett

[Spartan Tartan]

Good point, Richard.

Scaling that image gives sett sizes of only ~3.5" for the 'too small', and ~9.5" for the 'just right'.

So... a question for the kilt makers reading this- Is a sett size of 9" to 10" workable for (a) pleating to the stripe, and (b) pleating to the sett?

Using Barb's calculations above, a 9" sett should give 22 pleats (198/9=22) if 5.5 yards are used in the pleats.
My 16oz Macpherson kilt has 25 pleats, so if I was looking to create a kilt in my own design of tartan with a 9" sett, I could either settle for 22 pleats, or have the kilt made with a bit of extra fabric to give 25 slightly deeper pleats. I'd need 6.25 yards instead of 5.5 (25*9=225")

A 10" sett gives me only 20 pleats, or I can use ~6.95 yards of cloth (250") to get my 25 pleats.

Given that Dalgleish's cloth is 15oz, not 16oz, this might be a reasonable way of gaining a little extra swish, no?

I absolutely love all this math talk... ahhhhhh...

Oh, and I really am excited to see what the final outcome turns out to be.

[Calgacus]

Kyle, scaling from your friend Duncan's photo it would appear that his sett is about 12".
With that in mind, and the fact that the Dalgleish 18oz fabric does not appear to use thicker threads, I'd say your only option is to go with the regular Chattan (clan) sett which will be a shade under 10", or attempt some tweaking of the sett to enlarge it to 12" or more. I think you would be best to do that by carefully increasing the thread counts of the wider stripes only and trying to maintain the balance and overall appearance of the tartan. Technically, you'd be creating your own sett or at least variation of the Chattan sett, so you may wish to run that past your friends/family/chief so as not to tread on any toes.

I too am interested to see what comes of all this, as it has a lot of bearing on my own ideas for a custom weave. Having bought swatches, I discovered that neither of the mills that produced Johnston Weathered actually stuck properly to the Johnston sett! The thread counts of the actual samples varied from the registered sett, and from the computer images shown on their websites. Not a big issue, but it was the thin stripes which were wrong, and it was fairly noticeable (to me, at least). Anyway it was enough for me to think 'stuff it, why not design my own tartan, given that my patrilinear family has no tartan and is just a sept of a border family'.

Don't hold your breath though, this is a long term project, there is a long list of things higher up the priority list for my disposable income.

[Barb T]

The rough calculation that I indicated in the post makes lots of assumptions about the size of the person, so, if you were a smaller person than the rough estimate, you could get more than 22 pleats in the same amount of tartan (because you'd use less in the apron and underapron). If you were a bigger person, it would make sense to order more tartan.

Although it's impossible to generalize about the "pleatability" of 10" sett, there are a few things that can be said. If it literally is impossible to get more than 1 pleat per sett, you simply have to settle for a smaller number of pleats or pleat to alternating stripes, both of which are fine alternatives. If a tartan element occurs more than once per sett, a kiltmaker can get more pleats into the kilt than the rough estimate, even pleating to the sett. If you are going to design your own tartan, and you want to make the sett big, you should have a kiltmaker evaluate the possibilities for pleating before you set your design in stone. I did that with a person last year who wanted a 17" sett with no repeating elements. He wanted it pleated to alternating stripes and was willing to accept that there was no other way to pleat the tartan.

And there's nothing wrong with 21 or 22 pleats - the swish comes from the amount of tartan in the back of the kilt, not from the number of pleats per se. 22 deeper pleats will swish just as well as 27 shallower pleats in a smaller sett.

[Nathan]

I don't mind the small sett on the Sleat kilt at all. It looks quite smart to my eye.

[Calgacus]

The rough calculation that I indicated in the post makes lots of assumptions about the size of the person, so, if you were a smaller person than the rough estimate, you could get more than 22 pleats in the same amount of tartan (because you'd use less in the apron and underapron). If you were a bigger person, it would make sense to order more tartan.

Although it's impossible to generalize about the "pleatability" of 10" sett, there are a few things that can be said. If it literally is impossible to get more than 1 pleat per sett, you simply have to settle for a smaller number of pleats or pleat to alternating stripes, both of which are fine alternatives. If a tartan element occurs more than once per sett, a kiltmaker can get more pleats into the kilt than the rough estimate, even pleating to the sett. If you are going to design your own tartan, and you want to make the sett big, you should have a kiltmaker evaluate the possibilities for pleating before you set your design in stone. I did that with a person last year who wanted a 17" sett with no repeating elements. He wanted it pleated to alternating stripes and was willing to accept that there was no other way to pleat the tartan.

And there's nothing wrong with 21 or 22 pleats - the swish comes from the amount of tartan in the back of the kilt, not from the number of pleats per se. 22 deeper pleats will swish just as well as 27 shallower pleats in a smaller sett.

Thank you for the excellent information, Barb.

So, a further couple of questions...

1) Thinking 'Kyle' here, what is the biggest sett that you can work with, assuming no repeating elements, and assuming no alternating pleats? (In other words, one sett per pleat, pleated to the stripe, the stripe on every pleat.) I assume that eventually you get to a point where you have pleats so deep it starts to affect the construction of the kilt, or the pleats are so few that it looks bad, or am I wrong?

2) Thinking 'me' here, just to clarify, am I correct in my assumption that putting a bit more material in the back of the kilt, either as deeper pleats of a larger sett, or more pleats of a smaller sett, will give better swish? I'm thinking here of compensation for Dalgleish's cloth being only 15oz.

This is fun!

[Tobus]

I'm thinking here of compensation for Dalgleish's cloth being only 15oz.

I think this is being made into more of a fuss than necessary. The difference between 15 oz cloth and 16 oz cloth (the "standard" for kilts) is largely academic. It's a 6.66% difference in numbers, and on top of that, it's only a "nominal" weight. Actual cloth weight will vary to the point where there's no real difference at all.

I'm betting you can't tell the difference between the two if you hold them in your hand or drape them to test the swish. A kiltmaker who works with tartan every day might be able to tell the difference since their hands and eyes are fine-tuned to it, but for the average kilt wearer, it's going to be pretty much unnoticeable. My 15 oz DC Dalgliesh kilt swishes every bit as good as my 16 oz Lochcarron Strome kilt. I really don't think any "compensation" has to be made in the kilt construction, although Barb can certainly correct me if I'm wrong.

[Calgacus]

I think this is being made into more of a fuss than necessary.

Yes, you're probably absolutely right!

The difference between 15 oz cloth and 16 oz cloth (the "standard" for kilts) is largely academic. It's a 6.66% difference in numbers, and on top of that, it's only a "nominal" weight. Actual cloth weight will vary to the point where there's no real difference at all.

True, but the difference between 16oz and 13oz is only three times that, or ~20%, and there is a noticeable difference of swish there, so I thought it was worth thinking about.

I'm betting you can't tell the difference between the two if you hold them in your hand or drape them to test the swish.

I have swatches of both right here in front of me and there's not a lot in it. Folding the cloth over until it's 8 layers thick allows a slight difference to be noticed.

A kiltmaker who works with tartan every day might be able to tell the difference since their hands and eyes are fine-tuned to it, but for the average kilt wearer, it's going to be pretty much unnoticeable. My 15 oz DC Dalgliesh kilt swishes every bit as good as my 16 oz Lochcarron Strome kilt. I really don't think any "compensation" has to be made in the kilt construction, although Barb can certainly correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm working on the basis of better to over-think things then dismiss what is unimportant, rather than under-think things and miss something important!

[creagdhubh]

I think this is being made into more of a fuss than necessary. The difference between 15 oz cloth and 16 oz cloth (the "standard" for kilts) is largely academic. It's a 6.66% difference in numbers, and on top of that, it's only a "nominal" weight. Actual cloth weight will vary to the point where there's no real difference at all.

I'm betting you can't tell the difference between the two if you hold them in your hand or drape them to test the swish. A kiltmaker who works with tartan every day might be able to tell the difference since their hands and eyes are fine-tuned to it, but for the average kilt wearer, it's going to be pretty much unnoticeable. My 15 oz DC Dalgliesh kilt swishes every bit as good as my 16 oz Lochcarron Strome kilt. I really don't think any "compensation" has to be made in the kilt construction, although Barb can certainly correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree, Tobus. I have owned 8-yard kilts made from Lochcarron's Strome range. When compared to the Macpherson Reproduction kilt I have now from D.C. Dalgliesh (made by Barb), and in regards to the overall feel and the "swish" of the pleats, there is no difference; they both feel the same.

[creagdhubh]

Knowing next to nothing about pleating, and simply talking aesthetics of the kilt front panels when being worn, I'll say that most tartans nowadays feel too small to me. I love the big 'manly' setts seen on Army kilts. However for my eye Duncan MacPherson's sett is too big.

There's a thing in design where it behooves you to 'respect the format' in other words have things at an appropriate scale for the given format. For a kilt's tartan the format is the size of the upper front panel. There's a certain sett size that fits the format best, to my eye.

What's interesting about The Highlanders of Scotland is that you can see sett sizes all over the map, from enormous to tiny. It evidently isn't as settled as it is now, amongst weavers.

I agree with Calgacus, excellent point here, Richard. Although, I will disagree with you in regards to Duncan's kilt. I think the Hunting Macpherson sett looks quite smart enlarged the way it is. My good mate and cousin, Bruce Macpherson wears a similar kilt. Both Duncan's and Bruce's kilts are quite old as well. They are not recent additions to their wardrobe by any means. Bruce's kilt came from his great-grandfather, whom like Cluny, was a High Court Judge.

Bruce Macpherson's kilt in the Hunting Macpherson tartan with an enormous sett.


Here's mine, woven by House of Edgar's Old and Rare Heavyweight Range, for comparison. Whereas I don't necessarily think this particular sett is too small, as with the Chattan tartan, I definitely would like to go larger without sacrificing the overall balance and aesthetic of the tartan.


Here are a few more examples from Kenneth MacLeay:

I absolutely love the look of both the Dress Macpherson (left) and the Hunting Macpherson (right) tartans enlarged in this manner. This is another project of mine for the future.


The two Camerons on the right with a beautifully, enlarged sett.


And finally, a pair of Mackintosh lads. This particular sett woven today looks far too small in comparison to how wonderful it looks enlarged in this manner.


Here's a photo of another good mate, Donald Mackintosh wearing the Mackintosh clan tartan. When compared with the enlarged Mackintosh sett(s) shown above in MacLeay's portrait, you can obviously spot the difference straight away. The enlarged Mackintosh sett definitely has its own presence. The boldness, and as you stated, "manliness" of an enlarged sett, along with it being totally unique, is very attractive to me.

[creagdhubh]

Kyle, scaling from your friend Duncan's photo it would appear that his sett is about 12".
With that in mind, and the fact that the Dalgleish 18oz fabric does not appear to use thicker threads, I'd say your only option is to go with the regular Chattan (clan) sett which will be a shade under 10", or attempt some tweaking of the sett to enlarge it to 12" or more. I think you would be best to do that by carefully increasing the thread counts of the wider stripes only and trying to maintain the balance and overall appearance of the tartan. Technically, you'd be creating your own sett or at least variation of the Chattan sett, so you may wish to run that past your friends/family/chief so as not to tread on any toes.

I too am interested to see what comes of all this, as it has a lot of bearing on my own ideas for a custom weave. Having bought swatches, I discovered that neither of the mills that produced Johnston Weathered actually stuck properly to the Johnston sett! The thread counts of the actual samples varied from the registered sett, and from the computer images shown on their websites. Not a big issue, but it was the thin stripes which were wrong, and it was fairly noticeable (to me, at least). Anyway it was enough for me to think 'stuff it, why not design my own tartan, given that my patrilinear family has no tartan and is just a sept of a border family'.

Don't hold your breath though, this is a long term project, there is a long list of things higher up the priority list for my disposable income.

Thanks, Calgacus. Your assistance and contribution to this thread has been invaluable. That being said, my mind has been tinkering back and forth with regards to either going foward and attempting to enlarge/tweaking the Chattan sett to my satisfaction and to a point in which it would actually work, or simply leaving the sett woven as it is from D.C. Dalgliesh.

As I stated previously; the Chattan Clan sett is fairly large already, and my concerns for the kilt with an even larger sett having a balanced/smart appearance with a good number of pleats seem to be growing by the minute! It's so difficult to tell how all of this will work out in the end, since we obviously don't have the actual tartan in front of us with the sett enlarged at different degrees. However, if you take a look at the Chattan Chief tartan, you will see that sett is indeed larger than than of the Chattan Clan tartan. The only difference being, a white line was added to the red ground. I am rather curious about the sett size of the Chattan Chief tartan and how it would look when woven. My thinking is, that the overall sett size of the Chattan Chief tartan (minus the white line on the red ground), when applied to a newly woven Chattan Clan tartan, may be just the size I am looking for. This is definitely a challenge to get it right, but I shall not give in just yet!