I would like to submit a proposal to the membership

[Calgacus]

Steve, I think that is an excellent sentiment.

Here are my suggestions for style sub-fora. I have drawn on Nathan's "approaches" approach, but did a bit of tweaking.

Historical and Costume Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt from a bygone era—whether accurate, theatrical, or anachronistic.

Fashion Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt that follow the latest trends in retail, rental/hire, and runway style.

Traditional Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as contemporary Highland attire that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Postmodern Kilt Wear: This section is for discussing approaches to wearing the kilt as everyday clothing and/or street wear that privileges personal interpretation.


The General and Accessories sub-fora will remain a free-for-all because they are open. I guess we're missing a section on uniforms, but that is more a question of regulations than options... I suppose solo pipers who have the freedom to choose could post in the Celtic Music section?

Another big 'plus one' for this approach, this one is the best yet, to my mind.

[davidlpope]

Steve,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. In a way, XMarks is the baby that Hank birthed and you adopted. Like every parent, I'm sure that you have a vision for what you hoped it would grow up to be. Like most kids, though, they tend to have a mind of their own.

XMarks, like most online forums, is a marketplace of ideas. I think we are all better for having different opinions presented. That carries with it, though, the possibility that some ideas will be more compelling than others.

I don't know why there isn't more discussion about contemporary kilt-wearing. Maybe less folks are interested in this style of kilt-wearing. Maybe contemporary kilt-wearers spend less time online and more time doing other things. Maybe there just isn't that much to talk about when there are no shared conventions to discuss.

For many of us, though, the kilt is inextricably tied to the Highlands of Scotland. Our sensibilities continue to be guided by how the kilt was, and is, worn in the Highlands of Scotland. As a result, many threads discussing traditional kilt-wearing will have be in the context of a Highland/Scottish event.

If a poster asks for general feedback or advice, it doesn't seem right that those who hold a more traditional view should voluntarily censor ourselves. I shudder when I think of XMarks returning to a place where a guy posts a picture of himself wearing a kilt and a fried egg on his head and is met with responses of "Looks great! You wear it well!" In the same vein, I listen to and consider your view that many wearing THCD seem to be wearing a costume or appearing in a production of Brigadoon. I may not agree with your assessment, but I'm willing to politely listen and consider your opinion.

If other members really don't want to be encounter views which are more traditional than their own, they can simply post in the Contemporary forum. I'd hate to think that's what they'd do, but it's an option. I do get the sense, though, that there is more angst about this issue in the Contemporary/Modern/Non-Traditional camp. The Traditionalists, for the most part, seem to recognize that we'll not all agree about these things.

I think that the subforums serve a beneficial purpose and would hate to see them go. I think the delineation of these subforums should be based on how the kilt is worn, not where the kilt is worn.

Finally, I believe the wedding photo that you posted was taken in Dumfries. The kilt isn't native to the Lowlands or Borders. Here's a picture of a Highlander on his wedding day:

[Jock Scot]

The three Kilt style forums have been a problem since day one.

The Historical section does not seem to be the problem. The difference between the Traditional and the Contemporary is where all the problems are.

Then Alan H. posted about his trip to Scotland and something clicked.

In Scotland the kilt is considered special. It is worn for Highland Games, weddings, proms, and other events where Highland outfits are expected.
The same could be said for the way our traditionalist view the kilt.
We always see the traditionalists posting pics of how the kilt can be worn for these special events. These outfits look distinctly out of place on the street. They need the Highland event context to fit in.

The Modernists are posting pics of how the kilt can be worn as everyday clothing. What you would wear if you take the pants out of the picture.
This is how I dress. Even in the pic I post with the three guys is to me, normal everyday wear. I am not going to a Highland Games or to a wedding. I'm going to the shop or to the office or to the supermarket.

What would the membership think if we re-defined the three sections and based what would be posted based on the reason you are wearing the kilt?

For example - We could re-define the Historical section to something like - Historical and Costume Wear.
In this section you would post if you were a reinactor. If you were putting together a Historically based outfit. Or if you were going to a costume ball or Halloween. This would also cover stage costumes.

The Traditional section could be re-defined like - Highland Event Wear -
In this section you would post if you were going to wear your kilt to a Highland Games, a dress dinner, wedding or prom.
You would also post here if the reason you were putting on a kilt is to go to any Highland themed event.
I think this would cover about 99% of the posts currently in the Traditional section.
My thinking is that when the traditionalist do post they are almost always going to some event and they are wearing Highland Attire.

The Modern section could be re-defined like - Modern Street Wear -
In this section you would post if you think of the kilt as just another piece of clothing. Going about your daily life and doing normal daily things.
Those like me who wear the kilt everyday would post here. If you are going to the beach or walking the dog you would post here.
The idea is that you are not planning on going to any special Highland themed event or function.

Perhaps looking at our outfits like this would help with the current problem where everyone is gauged by the traditional dress standards.
Utilikilts, would have a place that was comfortable to post in without being held to and compared to some traditional mode of dress.
My three amigos photo would be instantly recognized as street wear and the traditionalist would know why I am dressing like that.
Photos of guys at Grandfather Mtn. in their Bonnets, laird's plaids and cromach's would be comfortable in the Highland Event section because it fits with what they are trying to get across with their outfits.

What does the rabble think about this idea? Do you think it would solve the problems we seem to have with the current wording of the three sections?
Would a re-definition of the three sections like this give our modernists a comfortable place to post without being compared to some highland ideal they were not trying to emulate in the first place?

I would like to hear from our traditionalist and also, more importantly, from our modernists. @Alan H would this work for you?

Almost any idea or comment would be welcome at this stage.

Here lies your problem Steve. I and others have obviously failed over the time ---the last seven years for me------to get you to understand that Traditional kilt attire is not all tweeds, brogues and cromachs and whilst sometimes that form of dress is very much everyday wear in Scotland, it is not always so. Equally though, so are shirt sleeves and bare feet in the correct circumstance. Given that the kilt is a rare sight anyway it is difficult to explain, but whilst many Scots do indeed save the kilt for special events that is not and never has been the case for some from the traditional kilt world.

For example I have just left the river for a bite to eat and passed a kilted fisherman(sport fisherman) paddling with his children in the river, what was he wearing? Shirt sleeves and tartan kilt, nothing else! Perfectly traditional, so traditional in fact, that it would not even raise a thought from me in normal circumstance. It is only because of these discussions on this website that I even mention it.

I look foreward to Colin and Nathan's efforts with considerable interest, with their THCD words and illustrations becoming available before long.

Interestingly when I joined this website it was the traditionalists that were having a "tough" time in getting a voice heard and now, it is true, the pendulem has swung the other way. I am quite sure it will swing the other way again, when some strong voices become respected here, for long enough. The one thing I am personally glad of, is the distinct lack of the "I will wear what I damn well like, when I bl+++y like" type threads and posts. So I do believe that the members are far more respectful of each other's views than they once were here.

[ratspike]

I don't know why there isn't more discussion about contemporary kilt-wearing. Maybe less folks are interested in this style of kilt-wearing. Maybe contemporary kilt-wearers spend less time online and more time doing other things. Maybe there just isn't that much to talk about when there are no shared conventions to discuss.

I think it's a combination of those things. I think there's plenty of discussion to be had around the when/where/why/how of wearing a kilt that way, but it's definitely not the same. Another thing I've noticed, both from my customers and other MUG wearers I've talked with, is that they don't feel the need to nerd out over their kilts because it's just clothing to them. If we want more discussion and photos and sense of community within our oddball little niche, it's on us to make it happen. Post more interesting threads, I think someone said earlier. 100% true.

[Nathan]

I'm going to quote something here which I had a very very strong knee jerk reaction to.

"This idea concerns me the most. People wear anything under the sun to Highland games. If this change was made it would effectively kill the traditional sub-forum which, as David Pope points out, is working well.'

I honestly believe that this is at the crux of why I think the current Traditional section is NOT working.
I work Highland Games. I see all kinds of people and I see all kinds of ways to dress.
But at Games there is one thing that binds everyone together. They are celebrating their Scottish Heritage.

To me it does not matter that a guy shows up in an old Prince Charlie three sizes too big and a traditional kilt kilt worn at jeans waist with the hem overlapping the tops of his white hose.

It also does not matter that another guy shows up with blue face paint and a double handed broadsword across his back.

Both of these guys are dressing in what they believe is their best Scottish outfits.

Where I take objection is the suggestion in the above quote that they are somehow wrong. That is just the height of Kilt Koppery.

I'm sorry, but one of these guys is in a Highland outfit reflecting his heritage and the other guy is in a Hollywood inspired costume. If he believes he's in a Scottish outfit; he is, indeed, mistaken. It's only kilt koppery when I say, "don't do that". If someone wants to dress like McGruff the Crime Dog in a kilt, more power to them, but lets not pretend that those two things are the same.

If I see a guy dressed in his laird's plaid, and cromach two things come to mind.
The first thought is Öh, are they are doing Brigadoon this year." and then "That guy must be part of the floor show".
If you want to dress like your idea of a Highland Chief, fine. But to most people at games here in N. America you are seen to be in costume just like the guy playing at being Mel Gibson.

They are entitled to think what they like when they look at me. The difference is that I'm in traditional cultural garb and not a costume and if someone thinks it looks like a costume, I can't control that. William Wallace never wore a Mel Gibson style costume while I'm wearing the garb that Highlanders currently wear in the Highlands. My outfit is contemporary and traditional and the Mel Gibson fellow's outfit is fantasy. If he enjoys fantasy or cosplay, great! But that's what it is.

To suggest, or as is often the case on this forum lately, that one guy is somehow right and the other wrong is just WRONG!

One is dressed traditionally correctly and the other person has possibly been led astray by the film industry. It's not wrong as in morally wrong but it is incorrect from a traditional perspective, whether you are comfortable with that fact or not.

That said, if someone chooses not to dress traditionally, they are perfectly free to do so. As I've mentioned, sometimes I don't. If they enjoy it and their friends enjoy it, more power to them. I like the way you dress and I like Jamie's leather kilt jacket. I may like some other people's choices less, but that is my right just as it is their right to wear the stuff.

The other thing that causes me to have a knee jerk reaction (and we are starting to see hints of it in others) is that somehow this is a contest about how Scottish you are.
We even had just such a contest on this forum not too long ago. I almost shut that thread down for the simple fact that -
This is a kilt fashion forum. It is not a Scottish forum. Nor is it a Scottish Heritage or Scottish life forum.
If you wanted a Scottish forum you should have posted more over on "The Scot's Forum" and kept it going. Or failing that, bought "The Scot's Forum" and made it into what you want.

I think I'm pretty happy at xmarks, actually and based on the traffic in the traditional section, I think a lot of other members are too. The joke contest thread you mention had nothing to do with kilts and had everything to do with current life in Scotland including bars, bands etc...

I don't see what that has to do with people who enjoy a traditional approach to kilt wearing but it does betray the reality that a lot of xmarks members feel a connection to Scotland.

The kilt and its accessories are the product of Highland culture. Does that mean that one must be Scottish or of Scots decent to wear the kilt? Not at all. But it does mean that when they do so, they are wearing Highland Scottish attire. There must be a balance between open-mindedness and respect.

It even says so right in our Mission Statement -

"This site is a place where our members can enjoy the company of all other fellow kilt wearers. We wish to provide a place where those who choose to wear the kilt can find friendship, information, guidance, advice, and share their kilt experiences with others.


This is a Kilt Forum. Our members come here to learn about, discuss and share a love for the kilt. This is not a Scottish specific forum nor is it a highland wear specific forum, just as it is not a modern wear specific forum. We keep our focus on the kilt. It is what brings us here and what makes this forum unique in the world."

It is a kilt forum but there is a whole lot of Scottish culture on here from the Athletics section to the Gaelic Languages and Celtic music sections. You would have to destroy a lot more of this site to extract the Scottish culture from the garment it birthed and if that effort was successful it would be tragic.

What I am seeing more and more of is an attitude of elitism and ego boosting about being so right, so Scottish.

I am honestly trying to find a way to make everyone who chooses to put on a kilt, for whatever reason, to be welcome here.

This forum recognizes the Scottish origins of the kilt and the part the kilt plays in the Scottish dress. But we also need to see and welcome the UK/dreadlock/big boot style of kilts.<snip>....

...<snip> I honestly believe that we need to take a chill pill. When a newbie comes to us and says he wants to wear the kilt we should be responding with, "Come on in, the water's fine".

There is a subforum for the dreadlock big boot approach and many others. There is also a subforum for the traditional Highland approach. I don't think the traditionalists spend their time wagging their fingers at people who make the choice to dress unconventionally or to put their own twist on things - especially when they post in the correct sub-forum. We may, indeed, praise a job well done enthusiastically when someone puts together a very nice traditional outfit or purchases an enviable piece of traditional kit, but I don't see that those two things are the same. The subforums could be tweaked but the idea that Scottish people (and their offspring) who wear the kilt in a Scottish (Highland) manner are unwelcome here is very unsettling.

I'd like this place to be welcoming to everyone, too - traditionalists included. I think @CMcG has refined my idea very nicely and I hope his suggestion gets due consideration.

I worry that delineating the sections as you suggest would lead to more conflict and kilt coppery rather than less.

[MinusHD]

I believe Steve’s proposal is pretty much on the mark. I’ve read all the posts, and I read all of the previous thread along these same lines. Just about every suggestion will be met with some criticism, typically revolving a few details about “how I wear the kilt” and how each person perceives his own manner of dress. We all have our opinions (and now I’m sharing mine). A lot of people like to keep defining things… and there ends up being too many ideas of what is or isn’t “traditional” or “contemporary”. We need to get to some consensus pretty quickly, and Steve is trying to provide a forum where all kilt wearers can have a place to congregate, albeit virtually. I appreciate his efforts, as well as the efforts of those involved in crating this site, the efforts of the moderators who maintain it, as well as everyone who contributes. Let’s get out of our little niches and broaden our collective perspective.

Think of Steve’s proposal as broad brushed categories. You still decide where to post. I suggest that If you feel like you are a traditionalist and you’re wearing your best TCHD (or THCD?) to an event that he hasn’t specifically named in his description, so what? You’re still wearing your best TCHD (or THCD?) as if you were attending one of those events… so post in the “Highland Event Wear”* forum. Similarly, if you consider your “every day” kilt attire to also fall into a traditional style, by all means post in the “Highland Event Wear” forum. But think about the big picture. How are you dressing?
* Caveat: Yes, at the typical Highland Games you’ll see all kinds of kilts, made all kinds of ways, made of out of all kinds of materials, and worn with all kinds of other items. Conceding that exception I still feel that a “Highland Event Wear” section makes sense when described as:
· Wearing your kilt to a Highland Games, a dress dinner, wedding or prom”
· “If the reason you were putting on a kilt is to go to any Highland themed event”
· Considering that “when the traditionalists do post they are almost always going to some event and they are wearing Highland Attire”
The only thing I might add is “any time you dress in a traditional manner, as if you would dress for a Highland Event with the appropriate level of formality” - something like that.

If you feel like you wear the kilt in a more modern / non-traditional style, you’ll want to post in the Modern Street Wear” forum. There might be some blurred lines, but that’s OK… what’s the wore that can happen? Remember that many contemporary kilt wearers still include some traditional accoutrements in our non-traditional styles, but again.. think of the big picture. How are you dressing?

There have been some suggestions to differentiate between the way traditional and modern kilts are made. There are 2 parts to my response…
1.) I disagree because there are a LOT of people wearing traditionally made kilts in a “Modern Street Wear” style. Steve is trying to put the emphasis on how the kilt is worn (your overall style of dress) as opposed to the way the kilt is made.
2.) Of course, there is plenty of excellent discussion to be had regarding how a kilt is made, but I think kilt making should be handled separately – perhaps in a separate forum section?
I may be in the minority on this, but the difference to me is how it’s worn vs. how it’s made… these two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Will Steve’s proposed categories solve every traditional/non-traditional dispute? No way… impossible. However, I believe his proposed categories will funnel each of us to the right pool of thought most of the time. I like to bounce around the different forums and learn as much as I can. Several members are equally comfortable dressing in “highland event wear” or “modern street wear”. There are many ways to dress in between, but a soft line has to be drawn somewhere.

So if you only take one thing away from my post, consider placing the focus on your overall style of dress when wearing your kilt. Big picture… How are you dressing? I think Steve has it right. Thanks for reading.

[Steve Ashton]

Then Jock, by your definition there should be these categories?

Kilt Wearing

By this thinking we can take all the threads in the current Kilt Styles section and move them into General Kilt Talk and rename it just Kilt Talk.


However, still following this line of thinking - If we decide to keep separate sections they could be something like -

Kilt Newbie Section- If you are new to the forum post an introduction

Newbie Posts

Kilt Style Section

Kilts as a uniform - For those member who have an interest in the dress of the Military and Pipe Bands
Kilts as a costume - For those members who have an interest in the stage, screen, and Ren Faires, etc.
Kilts as they were worn in the past - For our members to post photos and illustrations of kilts and outfits from the past.
Kilts as they are worn today - For our member to discuss all the ways kilt may be, and are, worn today.

Kilt Information Section

Tutorials and How-To's
The Library
Putting it on properly
Care and maintenance
DIY Showroom

A good suggestion Jock. Simple clean and elegant. Thank you.

[Liam]

Or you could just leave it as it is. When I log in, I always click on "new posts" and rarely pay attention to the category. If a post interests me I scan through and sometimes comment or hit the aye button. The only time I pay any attention to the categories is when I decide to start a new post.
As Jock often says - you're over thinking this.
Slainte

[Nathan]

Then Jock, by your definition there should be these categories?

Kilt Wearing

By this thinking we can take all the threads in the current Kilt Styles section and move them into General Kilt Talk and rename it just Kilt Talk.


However, still following this line of thinking - If we decide to keep separate sections they could be something like -

Kilt Newbie Section- If you are new to the forum post an introduction

Newbie Posts

Kilt Style Section

Kilts as a uniform - For those member who have an interest in the dress of the Military and Pipe Bands
Kilts as a costume - For those members who have an interest in the stage, screen, and Ren Faires,
Kilts as they were worn in the past - For our members to post photos and illustrations of kilts and outfits from the past.
Kilts as they are worn today - For our member to discuss all the ways kilt may be, and are, worn today.

Kilt Information Section

Tutorials and How-To's
The Library
Putting it on properly
Care and maintenance
DIY Showroom

Jock's point, as I read it, wasn't that there is no line between the present day traditional and non-traditional approaches to kilt wearing; but rather, that there is still a misunderstanding of where that line is.

This demonstrates well the need to have a separate section where fans of traditional attire can discuss what is and what is not in accordance with the tradition. Removing this vital aspect of information and advice from the xmarks menu would be a great loss and would lead to a whole lot more conflict.

Let the traditionalists have a place to nerd out about traditional choices. As Ratspike says, let the non-traditional folk inspire one another with more threads as well.



Edit:Not that I am trying to speak for Jock of course. He's more than able.

[CMcG]

Then Jock, by your definition there should be these categories?

Kilt Wearing

...

This strikes me as a reduction to the absurd, and I sincerely doubt that's what Jock meant.

Did you read my earlier post #29?